Celebrating Women in Engineering

In this bonus episode of The Equity Edge we mark International Women in Engineering Day, to raise the profile of women in engineering, celebrate their achievements and highlight the amazing engineering career opportunities available to women and girls.

Hosts Professor Sue Black OBE and Jo Stansfield are joined by Sarah Connolly, a Materials Engineer and Innovation Lead for transforming foundation industries, Lorraine Ferris, a Scientist and Managing Director who has worked across management consulting, environmental and chemical industries, and is now a fellow at the Henry Royce Institute, and Lucy Smith, Head of Transformation at the Materials Processing Institute, and leading Foundation Industries Ventures, also known as FIVe.

The conversation charts their individual, varied career paths, the highlights of their career so far, and the achievements they are most proud of. They discuss data around the percentage of women working in engineering decreasing, the fact that women aged 35 – 65 are choosing to leave the industry, and how we can retain female talent through the impact of  allies, advocates and mentors.

This is a live recording of #TheEquityEdge, recorded at the TransFIRe final event, which closes the three-year programme of research and innovation.

Meet our guests

Episode Transcript

Sue Black

Welcome!  The Equity Edge is all about shaping tomorrow’s foundation industries, with a focus on EDI – that’s equity, diversity, and inclusion, and how it can help us achieve a sustainable and fairer future.

I’m Professor Sue Black. I’m Professor of computer science and technology evangelist at Durham University, leading pioneering initiatives like our award winning TechUPWomen programme championing diversity in STEM

Jo Stansfield

And I’m Jo Stansfield. I’m an engineer-turned-business-psychologist specialising in equity, diversity and inclusion in engineering fields. Welcome to The Equity Edge podcast.

Sue Black

Together we are working with TransFIRe, a programme investigating how the foundation industries can develop innovative solutions to reduce waste and energy use, and to accelerate the development of clean technologies.

Jo Stansfield

These are the industries that make 75% of the materials we see around us, and are fundamental to modern society – they are: cement, metals, ceramics, glass, paper and chemicals.

 

Sue Black 

Hello everyone!

Sue Black 

What a lovely welcome. In this special episode of the Equity Edge we’re recording live at the TransFIRe final event, closing this three year program of research and innovation. Today we’re also marking International Women in Engineering Day, which happens each year on June the 23rd to raise the profile of women in engineering, celebrate their achievements and highlight the amazing engineering career opportunities available to women and girls. So who are we joined by today, Jo?

Jo Stansfield 

Thanks Sue. Today we’re joined by three incredible women engineers and scientists who have been instrumental in working to transform the foundation industries. So firstly, we have Sarah Connolly, a materials engineer and Innovation Lead for transforming foundation industries challenge, and she has been absolutely key to its program delivery. So welcome, Sarah.

Jo Stansfield 

And next, we welcome Lorraine Ferris. Lorraine is a scientist, an experienced managing director who has worked across management consulting, environmental and chemical industries, and Lorraine is now a fellow at the Henry Royce Institute’s welcome, Lorraine.

Sarah Connolly 

Thank you, Jo.

Lorraine Ferris 

Thank you.

Jo Stansfield 

And last but not least, we have Lucy Smith. Lucy is Head of Transformation at the Materials Processing Institute, and leading Foundation Industries Ventures, also known as FIve, to enable sustainable innovative growth for startups and spin outs in the foundation industries. Welcome, Lucy,

Lucy Smith

Thank you very much for having me.

Sue Black 

Hello, and welcome, everyone. What a great opportunity to highlight some of the work that each of you have been doing working in engineering, and for Transforming the Foundation Industries. So Sarah, let’s start with you. You were a materials engineer before your work on the TFI challenge. Can you tell us a bit about that, and how it led you to where you are now?

Sarah Connolly 

Yeah, absolutely. It’s a topic I love talking about so I’m going to try and keep it fairly brief. But especially for International Women in Engineering Day, I thought it’d be nice just to take you back a little bit on my journey into engineering. So I was really lucky at school that I was able to work with an excellent charity called the Engineering Development Trust, that brings active engineering programs into schools to see what an engineering role could really look like later on in your career. And this gave me a fantastic insight into especially the really extreme challenges that materials are put under when we’re developing state of the art applications like aerospace. And so it was in working with a local aerospace company that I really got excited by this challenge. And it kind of set the direction of my career going forward. So really, really glad I converted from law, a much more exciting profession.

Sarah Connolly 

So through my undergraduate degree in materials engineering, I looked at these extreme environments for lots of different applications, starting off in aerospace, and then moving into nuclear applications, which is actually what I chose to do my PhD in. So looking at how we can really both increase the readiness of our country and the world for these applications, but thinking about how we actually manufacture these materials that are at the most extreme of their possible conditions with radiation and high temperatures. How do we actually make these materials of the future? It was super, super exciting. I really loved working with industry and thinking about how we deploy this best practice from academia into the real world. And once I finished, I really continued in that trajectory. So I went to the High Value Manufacturing Catapult, where I sat between the best and brightest academics and the industrial challenges and thought specifically for the steel industry, how we make our processes more sustainable, how we reduce the energy that goes into those processes, and how we work with really exciting industries like automotive and the packaging industry to give them the best materials that they can use for their applications to help with their sustainability journeys as well. So it’s really in that holistic systems of approach that I found my passion for sustainability for these industries and creating that sustainable future. And it was by happenstance that I came across a briefing event for the first competition that the Transforming Foundation Industries Challenge was running, and I was sold from day one. So very quickly applied to move across and be the technical delivery lead for our programme over the past four years.

Sue Black 

Amazing. Thank you very much, Sarah. Lorraine, we will come to you next. You’ve had a varied career spanning large and small organizations in chemicals, pharma and the environment. What have been some of the highlights for you and what work makes you the most proud?

Lorraine Ferris 

Well, I’ve certainly had a very varied career and if I was to promote my career as a scientist to other people, I would emphasise the variety that I’ve had. One of my personal highlights was having the opportunity to have a secondments abroad where I lived through a period of time in the States. Wilmington, Delaware, you know, as in Joe Biden territory, and also in Brussels in Belgium for a while. On a more work basis, during my first three years working for ICI, who many of you will be familiar with that company, it is no longer with us. In my first three years, so imagine me at the age of about 25 or 26, just after my PhD. I was given responsibility for leading the technical translation of a process from lab scale to a full plant scale 10 tonne batches. And I was very proud that I was involved in that because in my eyes in those days, it was a sustainable material. I worked in the surfactants business, which made ethylene oxide based surfactants that were, and still are, derived from petrochemicals. This was a glucose based surfactant. So in my youth and naivety, I believed I was introducing a sustainable material. I’ve recently asked Croda, whether they would be prepared to share with me their current LCA, for that glucose based surfactant and ethylene oxide surfactants. Because I reckon I was being a little bit idealistic. Anyway, I was told that this project was impossible, that no one had ever done that before. And I was just through sheer dogged determination, just proud to deliver it in the end, despite what many of my colleagues told me.

Lorraine Ferris 

Another highlight is being MD of an environmental company in Bradford that did environmental monitoring, across the manufacturing sector across a very wide range of industries. I took over a company that the founders of the company had failed to sell, and made it into a saleable assets within two years. It was a really tough job. Really, really hard at times, but also incredibly rewarding, working with the team of people and developing the team. One of my things at the outset, when I went into that role was that I said, “I’m looking at this company, and it doesn’t look like Bradford”. Did I mention we were in Bradford? I’m not sure. It doesn’t look like Bradford. It was a lot of white males and me, you know. And I didn’t really exactly achieve my diversity targets, but I did somewhat increase the diversity. Very importantly, I modernized the whole outfit. I applied everything that I had learned from all of the other businesses I’d worked with, most of which were multinationals, into an SME environment, and made it work, made it good, made it profitable. I also surprised a lot of the young male staff because they all used to drive out to sites and big white transit vans. And I surprised them early on by when they wanted to move on the transit vans in the yard. I said, “Oh, just give me the keys.” And they were like,” you drive a transit van?” It’s like, “yeah”. I was driving a minibus as a student, the women’s minibus service at Leeds University, of course I can drive a transit van. You know, some of those little stereotypes.

Lorraine Ferris 

I’ll make this one brief. I got the opportunity to work in Whitehall as a government advisor, chemical sector advisor, and worked cross deeper mentally, and talked to people from across the Whitehall. All kinds of issues, many of which were on the news. There was one morning listening to the Today programme and thought “three of the things on the Today program, I’ve actually had conversations about with people in Whitehall”, and I got quite a buzz out of that. I thought that was good. I’m also very happy to be in my current role with the Henry Royce Institute, because it gives me the opportunity to bring everything together towards the end of my career into trying to do what I care most about, which is sustainability across industry.

Jo Stansfield 

That’s amazing. Lorraine. Thank you. Lucy, let’s come to you now. So as Head of Transformation at MPI and also leading FIVe ventures, you must be really busy. Would you tell us a bit about your work and some of the things that really motivate you?

Lucy Smith 

Yes. So I want to come back quickly to something that we were talking about earlier, just before we started recording, about opportunities at school. I was given the opportunity to start a GCSE in engineering, which then led to an A level engineering. And I remember the day that I decided that that was for me. We took a trip. So also we were talking about being from Yorkshire earlier. Another Yorkshire women in the room, and going having a nice little trip from Doncaster one day to Sheffield. It was a great day out and we went to Forgemasters in the morning. And I wouldn’t be able to tell you where we went in the afternoon because I was so taken aback by what I saw at Forgemasters. In the afternoon when I was in a lab looking at a very clean environment I was a little bit bored, to be honest with you, and I wanted to go back and walk around the amazing big fire pits that I saw at Forgemasters. So I think what we talked about earlier about having that opportunity for young people, young women to be in these environments and see these environments is really, really important just to get them thinking about other opportunities that are out there. Otherwise, I would have had no idea. And I did okay in my A levels and GCSEs for engineering, but I cannot weld. I also found that out, I did not make a bike. But I tried, just left that one behind. I think what motivates me now is the work that I’ve done since my PhD. So spending time looking at materials sustainability is really that driver for me, and making sure that the foundation industries can achieve net zero by 2050. We have to continue making these materials in one form or another. But actually, to do that, we have to change the way that we do that. And whether that’s through the materials, whether that’s through the processes that we use, and also the way that we run these companies. So that’s really what motivates me, I guess on a day to day basis, making sure that we can achieve sustainability and do that in a sustainable way. And as I mentioned earlier, it’s not just about achieving net zero. We need to do that in a sustainable manner, considering the social aspects, considering the environmental alongside the economic. So yeah, just for me, I just think it’s a really exciting opportunity over the next 25 years to be in this space to move everything forward.

Lucy Smith 

That’s brilliant. And it’s great to hear from all of you. You know, that common purpose that unites you all, but really different routes in and the way that you followed your careers. So let’s talk a bit more about women in engineering, generally, and some of the things that we can be doing to support women in engineering more. So there was a recent report that was published by Engineering UK that has some really disappointing statistics, I think. They found that the percentage of women working in engineering and technology roles has actually dropped in the last year. So it had been 16.5% in 2022. Not exactly a stellar number in the first place. But that has fallen to 15.7% in 2023. So that’s actually a fall of 38,000 women from the industry. And actually, particularly in the older age groups, that is where we’ve seen women leaving the industry. So the numbers of young women coming in is strong. But as people are progressing through their careers, actually, for a variety of reasons, they’re deciding to change their career path and to leave. So I’d like to know from our panelists, what’s your reaction to hearing this news? Sarah, would you like to go first?

Sarah Connolly 

Yeah, so for me, that was quite a shocking statistic that really brought it to life. And I looked more into the report, it’s a fantastic report that we can direct people to from Engineering UK that shows the data breakdown. And it also compares to sectors outside of engineering. And this trend just isn’t seen in other sectors. So this is specific to engineering. Women in the 35 to 65 age group are choosing to leave the profession. So the data doesn’t go into why. And I think that’s what we really need to start unpicking. Because there are really good initiatives going on. And the work that TransFIRe has done to really focus on equity and inclusion is fantastic. But how we rolled these initiatives out more widely, I think is really important over the next five years. Because with a massive skills shortage in these industries, already, we can’t afford to lose any talent from the industries at all. So all we can do to support is good.

Jo Stansfield 

Yeah, there really is a lot to do. Lorraine, what are your thoughts?

Lorraine Ferris 

That those statistics are absolutely not a surprise to me, particularly the bit about drop off mid career. It’s exactly what I’ve seen as I go through my career, exactly what I’ve seen. And I think there are at least a couple of reasons for it. One of the reasons which everybody will be thinking of, and is quite an obvious one is that the mid 30s is often when the childcare stuff has kicked in. The responsibilities, the family responsibilities, and that is a contributory factor, I’m sure, to why people might choose to step away from certain roles and jobs. But I wouldn’t like us to get too obsessed with that one. Because I think that many workplaces and companies are trying to make an effort, and it’s certainly a lot better. It’s a lot better that I can actually hear women in meeting say, “Sorry, gotta go”. Men. I shouldn’t just say women should I? I should say, I also hear men in meetings, saying, “Sorry, got to end the meeting now because I’ve got to pick the kids up.” Right. And that’s a massive change from when I started out 30 odd years ago. You wouldn’t have dreamt of saying that in a meeting. You would have considered that somebody would come and terminate your career or something, for saying something like that.

Lorraine Ferris 

So things, okay, are not quite as bad on that front. But there’s also another massive, massive reason, I think for that drop out in the 30s or so. And that is what are now called microaggressions, I believe. That as a woman in a fairly male dominated workplace, probably on a daily basis, and sometimes several times a day, you get little moments of either being cut down or not listened to, or whatever. And whilst I’m a stubborn old so and so that has put up with quite a lot of that, it takes it out of you as well. Emotionally, it’s a burden, and it wears you down. And I think that you come to points where you think, why am I putting up with this? You know, surely there’s a better way of working and living than this. And I actually personally believe that it’s the cultural aspects and the microaggressions, more perhaps even than the family responsibilities, that are responsible for a lot of that fallout rate.

Lorraine Ferris 

A last point that I wanted to make is that I took the liberty of looking back at statistics back to 2010 so that I could project into the future. How long would it take to reach parity? It’s about 150 years, you know?

Jo Stansfield 

Wow. 150 years, that’s quite shocking. Lucy, what are your thoughts about all of this?

Lucy Smith 

First of all, again, I’m not shocked, mainly because of what I see around me on a day to day basis, for myself entering that stage of my life. I try not to talk about that one too often. I see a lack of mentors and women for me to look up to who are in leadership roles, for me to understand what they’ve been through. And speaking with Lorraine, Lorraine, and I had almost an hour’s chat the other day. Just having that mentor, someone to speak to who’s been through what I’m hoping to go through now is very difficult, because there aren’t enough women there to have that discussion with. And yes, there are plenty of people around the room who are leaders who I do look up to. I’m not saying that because you’re not a woman I don’t look up to you. I certainly do. But it’s having the same experience. And unless, as Lorraine’s mentioned, those micro aggressions, they do wear you down. I used to say, when an opportunity came along, and if I got it, I used to say, “I’ve been lucky”. And actually, when I look back, I wasn’t lucky. I worked really hard. I work really hard to do what I do and be where I am. And I think that’s something that we have, as women, we probably push more than we need to just to prove to ourselves and to prove to everyone else, that we deserve to be where we are. And I think that’s really important to acknowledge. So no, I’m not surprised. It’s a sad statistic. I agree. Because, as we’ve all mentioned, as the three of us have mentioned, these are really exciting opportunities. And if we’ve got the girls through the door, I used to think that that was the biggest challenge. But maybe that’s not our biggest challenge. Maybe our biggest challenge is keeping them in the door in the first place.

Sue Black 

Yeah, absolutely. And that kind of chimes in with what I’ve learned over the years from the tech industry as well. So it’s not just the foundation industries, at all. There was some research done, I think about 10 or 15 years ago now by Rebecca George, and the British Computer Society, which looked at exactly that thing. Why are women leaving in their early 40s? And no one’s mentioned the glass ceiling, but I think that’s one of the things that came out of that, was that they just weren’t able to carry on going up the up the ladder, really. So not amazing, not an amazing picture. But we do need to talk about these things so that we can work out what to do about them. So maybe to flip that a bit then on to a more positive note. And so I was just thinking, when we were talking about 100 years time, I was like, “oh, so I’ll be dead”. Sorry that’s not the positive note I was referring to. But it is quite weird to realise that actually, these things might happen, but you won’t actually be here anymore. You know, having spent a whole career trying to do something about it. So now to flip that on to a more positive note. What are some of the things that have helped you and you believe can help other women to have rewarding, successful careers in engineering? We’ll start with you first. Lucy,

Lucy Smith 

The biggest thing for me recently has been allyship. So having people who I know that are not necessarily in the same room as me, but are talking about the things that I do, the things that I do through work, and what MPI do and what I’m doing with FIVe. And I think if you can raise someone up who’s not in the room, because you believe in what they’re doing and the impact that they’re making, to me that’s the most important thing that someone can do. Whether you’re a man, a woman, or you have no gender, just raise people up for the good work that they’re doing and show the impact that they’re having. Because otherwise, we don’t get that word out and we were not seen. And I think that’s really important.

Sue Black 

Yeah. Lorraine?

Lorraine Ferris 

I’d like to give a specific example of some allyship that happened to me very early on in my career. I mentioned that first big project, the one that I’ve been told wass impossible by everybody. I’m a scientist, but I was working in a team of about eight or 10 engineers at ICI, that we were all responsible for taking this process out to site. But I was the only chemist in the room, the only one with a lab team that was studying this process, and that actually saw what was going on and what it was like. And I felt that I wasn’t being listened to. Now, my manager, my line manager in one of our meetings, said, “How’s it going and everything?” And somehow we got onto the subject of where I said, “however, I think we’ve got a problem with the viscosity”, or whatever it was. And he said, “so what did Mr. X”, whatever the engineer’s name was, “what, what did he say?” I said, “Well, nobody said anything. I’ve told them this in the meeting repeatedly, and it’s as though I’m not speaking because they just carry on and talk about another subject”.

Lorraine Ferris 

Can I actually share with anybody in the audience that doesn’t already know this, that it’s actually a common experience as a woman, that you say things and it’s as though you’ve actually not said it. Or another classic is that later on somebody else in the room will have the same idea and, and say it. And it’s like, “oh, yeah, you know, George or Phil”, or whatever male name they happen to have, “that’s a great idea”.

Lorraine Ferris 

Well, that was happening to me repeatedly, at the age of about, say, 25 or 26, in this project team. And I told the R&D Group Manager, my line manager, and he said, “Well, I wouldn’t put up with that, you should…” I said, “I can’t, what can I do?” He said, “Well, if they won’t listen to, you should just walk out.” I said, “Well, I can’t walk out.” And he said, “Why can’t you walk out?” And I said, “because I want to do this project. I want to deliver on it. And if I walk out, you’ll put another chemist on it.” He said, “No I won’t. I’m the R&D Manager, and you’re the only chemist they’ve got. And I would advise you to walk out of that meeting.”

Lorraine Ferris 

Well, next time it happened, I took great pleasure in… In those days, it was before we all had laptops and PCs and things. We all had ring binders about that thick. So I took great pleasure in picking up all the individual pieces of paper, and putting them into the ring binder, and ignoring what was going on after they’d ignored me. And picking up my ring binder and walking out. And before I got out the door, the whole meeting had stopped. Completely stopped. And there’s one of them, Ian, who I knew quite well was shouting, “Lorraine, Lorraine, what you doing? What’s going on? What’s going on?” And I just said, “I’m going” and walked out the door. Well, one of the older guys followed me. Because I think, that’s another thing is because women have daughters, you know, they’re the only ones that are brave enough to speak to you. I mean, good for him, Malcolm was a nice guy. He followed me out into the corridor and said, “What’s going on Lorraine? What’s wrong? The others have sent me out to find out what’s going on.” I explained to him. And he said, “Right, okay, I’m gonna go back and explain to them and you’re coming back in.” And after that, once or twice, I had to slam the folder shut, but they always got the message, right. They got the message and listened to me. But the important part of that story is the R&D Manager, who empowered me. He empowered me by saying, I’ll back you up. Even if you have to stand up for yourself and become quite assertive about it. I will still back you up. And that helped.

Sue Black 

Amazing, that’s a really great story. Sarah.

Sarah Connolly 

Yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s echoing exactly what these two lovely ladies have said. Allyship, I think, is one of the most important things that can be done. And it also helps with confidence. I mean, I wish I could talk about my role and my achievements in the same way as some of my male colleagues. And I don’t think it’s just a gender issue, but having someone really advocate for you, really champion your successes, when you are in the room, when you’re not in the room, as Lucy says, I think that makes a massive difference. But I thought I’d pivot to something different as I think we’ve covered allyship really well. And for me, that’s purpose. I think. I’ve been really lucky in my roles to date that I’ve had the flexibility and the creative freedom to really think about that broader purpose that I want to have in my career, and how I bring that front and centre into the work that I do every day. Because I’m not motivated by the financials of a company. I wouldn’t be doing the job that I was doing, if I was. My metrics are getting good money out of the door, so I’d be quite bad at that.

Sarah Connolly 

But I think being able to think about the bigger picture, it’s something that more and more of the next generation are having front and center in their job requests. And I think we’ve all touched upon it. As we are entering the positions in our career where we can make those choices for ourselves and think about that purpose. It’s really given me that that love of engineering back again, and made me want to stay and do more, because it’s really exciting. And it’s full of challenges. But there are great opportunities to make a huge impact over the next 25 years. So we all need to be fighting the good fight.

Sue Black 

Yeah, absolutely. That’s amazing. Thank you. So we now have our quickfire question, which I hope you’re ready for. I think we’ve prepped you I’m hoping we have. What foundational material is most like your personality, and why? I’m going to Sarah first.

Sarah Connolly 

So we were mildly prepped, and this is what jumped to mind very quickly. I’m going to compare myself to a high entropy alloy. So for the materials engineers in the room, really, that jumped to mind, because there are so many things on my mind at any one time, I jump between different passion projects, and it all comes together to create something really magical. But if you looked at each of those parts, you probably might not recognize the full potential.

Sarah Connolly 

Amazing, you’ll have to explain to me what exactly that is after the podcast! Lorraine.

Lorraine Ferris 

I couldn’t choose just one material. I mean, I’ve spent a lifetime the chemical sector. So I’m afraid I chose a foundation industry instead to be, which is the chemical sector. Because I’m complicated, I’m a mass of interrelated pathways and things like that. And I’ve got a lot of different products that come out of me. I’m just complicated.

Lucy Smith 

I’m not sure how to follow those two. Also wasn’t really sure what what my answer was, although if you have heard me speak on other panels before, you may know that my favorite metal, material is Dysprosium. Thanks to Ian Reaney in the back there, for three years of my PhD. And obviously that’s because I’m a very rare element. I have lots of different things in my background, that make me who I am today.

Sue Black 

Well, that was wonderful.

(Indistinct audience member)  27:45

Vital

Lucy Smith 

Vital, thank you Ian. I agree.

Sue Black 

Right, so we’ve maybe got a couple of minutes to get a couple of questions from our audience. Does anyone have a question?

Jo Stansfield 

So a question for Lorraine. What do you recommend that people have to gain that support? If the Head of R&D hadn’t been there, what would you do without that support?

Lorraine Ferris 

Do you know what? That could have been the end of my career. Who knows. I could have just walked away, perhaps. I could have got very upset and thought, “I’m in the wrong job here” and left and gone and done something else. It really is as serious as that. As far as what I would give advice to a younger person in a similar situation as to what they might consider doing… Much later on in my career I had an executive coach. Well, I’ve actually used two executive coaches in two different phases. One was when I was still with ICI and the other one was when I got the MD role. I don’t think I could have fulfilled the MD role without a coach in the background. I’m a great believer in the coaching process, in order to get you to reflect upon what you’re doing. And they don’t tell you how to do things. But they tried to facilitate your thinking, to get you to think of different strategies and approaches. And that sounds like a bit of an expensive solution, doesn’t it, say to a 25 year old go and get an executive coach, but that’s one approach to it. And another thing is, is that perhaps, as an individual, you should always be looking out to find allies for yourself. And what I really would like to say to everybody here is that you should try to be the allies. You should try to be the change that you want to make in the world, or whatever the saying is.

Sarah Connolly 

Yeah, I’d just love to come in on that. So as part of one of the leadership courses that I’ve been on, one of the real standout gems was the need to find yourself a council of other people who will not collude, who will talk straight to you so you can bounce those scenarios off. It’s not your partner. It’s not your parents. These are professional people who can see a different side and really think about how you can progress through. So it is coaching, but it’s  peer to peer coaching. And I found that to be really helpful if you don’t have that ally in the room to give yourself that time to cool off, to talk it through, and then decide your next step.

Lucy Smith 

And coming even a step back from that, again, because I stupidly decided to do an MBA. The first module was leading yourself and others. So having that ability to reflect yourself on a situation, and understand how you came to that meeting, say. If you had issues when in a meeting, how you presented yourself, but also, knowing that a lot of the things that are coming from other people haven’t got anything to do with you. On a day to day basis, we’re all going through our own stuff. And as much as we don’t want to, we can bring that to work. And to be able to reflect on our own situation in side other situations, I think is really important. So actually, I know people don’t like the word, but journaling and actually thinking about a situation that you’ve been in, and thinking it through. And so you can almost then say yes, you can spend probably 1000s of pounds on a couch, brilliant. You can go out and find your allies and have those people around you. But there’s also things you can do internally to just work on yourself. Showing up as a learner, always being there to learn in any situation. Because we can always learn. We can always think that we know everything, but there’s always something to learn on a day to day basis. So I think there’s three attempts there answering that question.

Sue Black 

I just like to chip in a bit as well. I was just thinking, because that’s happened to all of us, right? Multiple times. So it’s not like it’s a rare thing. So maybe just for everyone,  even us as senior women, to just be aware that these things happen. And just try and notice when it does happen and be that ally. Because I think the more that that we’re aware that these things do happen, you know, you hear about it, you realize that this is very common occurrence. Even now, with 30 years in my career, it still happens to me now. Just be aware that that does happen, and just listen out for it in meetings. And notice that particularly if there is a minority group, be it women, people of color, in a meeting, just be a bit hyper aware of how they’re being treated in the meeting. You know, maybe they are making points and people just aren’t noticing. I don’t think it’s… I’ve never really thought that it was intentional that that happens. But just the fact that it happens over and over. It is happening a lot, so just try to be hyper aware of that.

Sue Black 

Right. So I think maybe one last word from everybody on here, but what would that word be? One last very short, positive thought about EDI and the Foundation Industries, Lucy.

Lucy Smith 

Okay. So there is research out there that shows that diversity at all levels helps your bottom line. I know in this room, it’s probably not what we’re all thinking about our bottom line, but it does. So when you are calling people together, just think about who’s in the room, and whether you’ve got diversity of thought. We want to have different thoughts around the table, and then we’ll move forward. So that was a few more than one word, but thank you.

Sue Black 

Thank you. Lorraine.

Lorraine Ferris 

After that, I don’t know how to follow that because you took away some of the things that I was thinking of. But I would just say, be sensitive. I really, really really backup what Jo’s just said about try to be sensitive to the dynamics and what’s going on around you. Try to read the room and try to be the change that you want to see. That’s what I would say.

Sue Black 

Thank you. Sarah.

Sarah Connolly 

I loved  how Jo introduced this session, and it’s it’s people first. We may be engineers, we may be thinking about tasks and projects. But if we can put people first then it’s better for all of us.

Jo Stansfield 

So something I just really loved about making the Equity Edge is bringing together people from across the Foundation Industries, across different roles, across lots of different backgrounds. And just the ideas it’s sparked. It has just been a brilliant example of how innovative thinking comes from having diverse perspectives all getting together, collaborating well, and just, light the touch paper and see what comes out of it. It’s very exciting.

Sue Black 

Absolutely. What a great place to finish. Thank you very much Jo and Sarah, Lorraine and Lucy. This has been an absolutely brilliant discussion. Thank you all so much for joining us today. And thank you very much to our wonderful audience.

Sue Black

Thank you for joining us for this Equity Edge episode.

Jo Stansfield

This Podcast can be found on our website www.transfire-hub.org/podcast and is also available on all good podcast channels.

Sue Black

And Please don’t forget to follow TransFIRe Hub on X and LinkedIN.  See you next time!