Fit for purpose: Fit for the Future

In this episode of #TheEquityEdge we wrap up the series by focusing on the future.  Hosts Professor Sue Black OBE and Jo Stansfield are joined by guests Bruce Adderley, Challenge Director for Transforming Foundation Industries at Innovate UK, Nana Campbell, Chief Impact Officer at the 10,000 Interns Foundation, Laura Baker, Head of Product Management and Development at Tata Steel, UK, and ambassador for STEM skills and education, Aston Fuller, General Manager at Glass Futures.

Our industry experts explore what lies ahead. They discuss the future challenges such as the demographics of the industry, with an aging workforce and environmental issues such as transitioning to green steel.  They look at ways to replenish the recruitment pipeline through internships and collaboration within manufacturing, research, technology and the supply chain.  The conversation covers the role of EDI across the foundations industries.

Meet our guests

Episode Transcript

Episode Transcript

Sue Black

Welcome!  The Equity Edge is all about shaping tomorrow’s foundation industries, with a focus on EDI – that’s equity, diversity, and inclusion, and how it can help us achieve a sustainable and fairer future.

I’m Professor Sue Black. I’m Professor of computer science and technology evangelist at Durham University, leading pioneering initiatives like our award winning TechUPWomen programme championing diversity in STEM

Jo Stansfield

And I’m Jo Stansfield. I’m an engineer-turned-business-psychologist specialising in equity, diversity and inclusion in engineering fields. Welcome to The Equity Edge podcast.

Sue Black

Together we are working with TransFIRe, a programme investigating how the foundation industries can develop innovative solutions to reduce waste and energy use, and to accelerate the development of clean technologies.

Jo Stansfield

These are the industries that make 75% of the materials we see around us, and are fundamental to modern society – they are: cement, metals, ceramics, glass, paper and chemicals.

 

Sue Black 

Hi, everybody. Welcome to the last episode of this season of the Equity Edge podcast. We’ve taken an eye opening tour of each foundation industry from cement and metals to ceramics and glass, paper and chemicals. We’ve heard from industry experts about key topics of sustainability, and of course equity, diversity and inclusion. Today we wrap up by looking towards the future of our industries with our expert guests. We’ll explore what lies ahead and the role of EDI on our journey. Who’s joining us for this episode, Jo.

Jo Stansfield 

Thanks, Sue. Today we’re joined by Bruce Adderley, the Challenge Director for Transforming Foundation Industries at Innovate UK. Welcome to the show, Bruce.

Bruce Adderley 

Hi Jo.

Jo Stansfield 

And we have Laura Baker, who’s head of Product Management and Development at Tata Steel, UK, and an ambassador for STEM skills and education. Welcome, Laura.

Laura Baker 

Good morning, Jo.

Jo Stansfield 

Next we have Aston Fuller, who is General Manager at Glass Futures, a global nonprofit organization that brings together the glass community in manufacturing, research technology and supply chain to eliminate carbon from the manufacturing process. Welcome, Aston.

Aston Fuller 

Hello, good morning, Jo.

Jo Stansfield 

And finally, we have Nana Campbell, who is Chief Impact Officer at the 10,000 Interns Foundation, championing underrepresented talent by offering paid internship opportunities across a range of UK industries. Welcome to the show, Nana.

Nana Campbell 

Hi, Jo. Hi, Sue.

Sue Black 

Great. Thanks for the intros, Jo. So Bruce, let’s start with you. Can you tell us a bit about your background.

Bruce Adderley 

So I joined the foundation industries by becoming a member of the steel industry back in 1994. But I’m a physicist by background and I’d actually completed two years of postdoctoral research when I was first employed by British Steel. And the reason they took me on was, to be honest, that I could number crunch well, and I’d get up to speed in six months instead of three years. Because it’s quite unusual, certainly at that time, to join industry at that point. I’ve run research projects, run research programs, and gradually got a greater and greater interest in everything to do with energy as part of the steel industry. And that’s led my career forward to gradually be doing more and more on climate change, and eventually starting to work with other sectors on policy matters, and how to technologically transform the various sectors, which meant that eventually, when the opportunity came up for someone to lead the Transforming Foundation Industries challenge, thankfully, I seem to be well suited. And I was offered the opportunity, which I’ve really enjoyed working on over over the last four to five years.

Sue Black 

That’s great. Thank you. So the Transforming Foundation Industries challenge, what was your idea? Where did the idea come from? And can you tell us a bit about the outcomes that you’re seeing so far?

Bruce Adderley 

So I think the first thing to say is, the idea of the challenge wasn’t my idea. It was effectively a community endeavor. So back in the day, we’re talking about 2018, Innovate UK went out for expressions of interest for industries, right across the economy, to say, “what are your big challenges?” “What do you want to work in?” And we literally got hundreds of approaches. I was working at Tata Steel at the time. So I was one of those people from industry who was saying “as the steel industry, this is what we want, this is a challenge we need to face and address”. And a similar thing happened for what we now know as the six foundation industries. They were all putting forward relatively similar challenges. Yes, some of the details were different. But it became clear that the real opportunity to be innovative and to do something different to make sure that we got different outcomes was to get the six sectors to work together on their challenges, and go forward that way. And indeed, that was the way that we’d be able to make the case to get the public resource to make the challenges happen. So it was really about bringing together all of those sectors to work collaboratively on our innovation challenges. That was the key about getting things off the ground.

Sue Black 

That’s really great. And so can you tell us about some of the outcomes so far?

Bruce Adderley 

Yeah, so a huge amount of work has been done over the last four to five years. In many ways, it has been about the people. Right from that start. I mentioned a moment ago about getting everybody together and working out what the challenges were that we should be working on together. And it’s the people that have made it made it happen and have made have made it a success. By getting everybody together, talking collaboratively about what the focus should be in the projects that we need to do. We’ve seen a huge wave of innovation projects happen. There’s been about £60 million program in that area that’s delivering lots of new technology, lots of new business models, lots of new ways of working. We’ve been involved heavily with Aston, who you will hear from shortly, in terms of Glass Futures and supporting their efforts to get that off the ground and be a great UK capability. We’ve done work with investors in terms of helping small and medium size companies take their innovation and company development journeys forward. And that’s all resulting in around about now a quarter of a billion pounds of investment in the Foundation Industries, in terms of innovation, off the back of the £66 million funding that we were given from the government in the first place. But of course, reflecting on today, we’ve also sought to address areas and try to be innovative in areas around skills, and around ED&I. I’m not going to say that we’ve been completely successful there. There’s always more to do. But I think we have started to make a difference and shown some directions of travel.

Sue Black 

Yeah, absolutely. And that’s been our experience on the TransFIRe project as well, really working on EDI. And just seeing the collaboration across the industries around sustainability has been really interesting. And the big focus on connecting different industries to help them reuse each other’s waste products and stuff like that. So lots of really interesting stuff, which before this project, I wouldn’t have even known I’d be interested in it. So that’s been great for us to find out about. Thanks very much, Bruce. So over to you now, Laura, can you tell us a bit about your career in the steel industry?

Laura Baker 

Yeah, no problem, Sue. I’ve been in the steel industry my whole career. So started off doing undergraduate studies in material science and engineering at Swansea University. Anyone who studies material science and engineering, in Swansea University back then, was inevitably going to get involved in the steel industry, which is just a stone’s throw away from the university. So having completed my undergraduate degree, I then went and did a postgraduate degree in steel technology sponsored by what was then British Steel. So it was a very natural transition then to move into the company. And I’ve been there ever since. So for about 22, 23 years. My roles have always focused on the product and customer side of the business. So I’m absolutely passionate about how steel is made, but more importantly, how it’s used in society and by our customers. So I’ve always tended towards those types of roles. I’ve done customer facing roles, supporting them using our steel. I’ve done design and development roles. I’ve done some supply chain roles, I’ve had lots of different experiences, which have all led me to the role I’m in now, which is head of product management and product development. So I am privileged to lead a team of amazing material scientists and metallurgists, who design all of our products and ensure that they meet the market requirements, and fulfill our customer’s needs, which ultimately fulfill society’s needs. So yeah, great place to be.

Sue Black 

That’s great. Thank you. So can you tell us about some of the technical challenges that we face in the transition to green steel?

Laura Baker 

Yeah, well, it’s a really interesting time in the steel industry. At the moment, you know, all the major players in the UK are transitioning towards greener technologies. There’s no doubt that all of us in the foundation industries can improve our performance in terms of our environmental credentials. So Tata steel, British Steel, and others have all announced that we’re moving towards different technologies. But obviously, that is a challenge. There’s the obvious the engineering challenges of moving massive pieces of equipment around the country and building new plants. But there’s also the challenge to make sure that our customers aren’t affected as we change the way we make our steel. So some real different challenges, both in terms of how we continue to support our customers, how we make sure we have the right skills in the organization to to make this change, and how we make sure that we can still provide the services that we need to provide to the communities as well. So yeah, a very interesting time to be in the steel industry.

Sue Black 

So how far along do you think we are in terms of being able to have a green steel industry? Is that even possible? Because, you know, from my limited experience, it just seems like how on earth would we do that?

Laura Baker 

I think it is possible. I think we forget the steel industry was one of the first circular economies. So the steel industry for forever has been recycling and reusing all the waste products, or as many of the waste products as possible, that get generated throughout the process. Whether that’s using the heat and the gases that are generated to power other parts of the plant or turning some of the waste products into byproducts for other industries. For example, we provide chemicals to some of the fertilizer industries. We provide the hardcore and aggregate for cement and other aggregate industries for use in road building, things like that. So this is all been going on since steel industry has existed really. Obviously, the big, big challenge now is how we can use more scrap in our steel production. So typically we use around 20% now. That will increase to 80, 90, 100%. So we’ll have that full circular lifecycle within the industry now where we’ll be able to bring scrap back from our customers and reuse it and create new steel. So, I think it is possible. I think we can certainly make massive improvements in our environmental credentials. But let’s not forget that we’re already pretty efficient today. So yeah, but we all need to take responsibility for the society we live in.

Jo Stansfield 

Aston, let’s come to you now. Your career has been in the glass industry. Can you tell us a bit about that?

Aston Fuller 

Yes can do. So thanks for having me. Today. It’s a pleasure to talk about this topic. So my background in the glass industry, I essentially studied mechanical engineering, at Sheffield University, and then post graduating just a bachelor’s not masters. I didn’t feel like I could afford it at the time. Looked for role and sort of a role being advertised for a batch and furnace technician. “Graduate wanted at a local glass plant in Barnsley”. So during that, I managed to get the job. As I said before, it wasn’t a formal grad scheme, it was just an on the coalface type job. I fell in love with the glass industry really, really enjoyed it. Professional pyromaniac is what I often tell people that we do. So when you look at furnace maintenance operations, controls, we’re melting glass at 1450 degrees in a box that’s 1600 degrees Celsius. That’s something that I really enjoy about materials on the edge of their working limits. So I fell in love with that and moved on to an engineering role where I was involved in capital projects and energy management.  And the energy management, really looking at the furnace efficiency, sustainability options for the industry as it goes forward. Things like changes in compressors. And then really, even thougj I love the industry, I really felt like it was going to be difficult to really change things. You know, you’re young and idealistic and looking at the world around us, and the changes that need to happen within industry. So I took a bit of a leap of faith. This was about the same time as Bruce’s said that transforming foundation industries conversations were happening in the background. So I serendipitously fell into Glass Futures in its early inception phase, I was working for British Glass, the Trade Federation at the time. That was my first research project, actually looking at the circularity of flat glass across Europe. It was a horizon funded program, and really got involved in that early foundation of the concept of industries coming together and building a unique pilot line that the world hasn’t got to carry out the sustainability research that we need. I’m a general manager of that now. I was employee number two, and we’ve got about 60. So really, it’s been a really rewarding journey over the course of the past few years, and really looking forward to having an impact on the industry. And that really isn’t just about sustainability and decarbonisation, it’s also about that skills agenda. Bringing new people into the industry and actually opening the industry up to a greater, more diverse workforce. The challenges we now face in the industry aren’t just melting glass in hot bricks, it’s automation, it’s process control, it’s data analytics. And it really leads to a much bigger skill set than it’s probably historically needed on typical manufacturing plants.

Jo Stansfield 

Wow, that’s amazing. Thank you. And I see why Glass Futures was your ideal role. Given that Glass Futures is all about building that sustainable future through glass. Can you tell us a bit more about how Glass Futures is doing that? What is the work that you’re doing?

Aston Fuller 

So we’re essentially working across the global supply chain for the glass industry. So I often talk to people about the fact that glass isn’t just the bottles and jars you see in the supermarket, or the glazing you see on a building, it’s really strewn through the fabric of society. So talking about wind turbines, they’ve got glass fibers, fiber optic communications across the Atlantic that allows the backbone of the internet to exist. It really is a core foundation material, as we talk about the many different applications. And the thing that unites all of those industrial sectors is that core manufacturing process. So even though they’re producing different products, and supplying them into different areas, they all require the same energy intensive high temperature process. And what we’ve realized is that actually, by pulling together a complete supply chain of partners, we can take material suppliers, equipment, suppliers, manufacturers, and end users and actually unite the common thread between all of them, and to actually get them to work in a pre competitive basis, across the whole gambit of technology requirements to help decarbonize the industry. To that end, the key unique asset for Glass Futures is a 30 ton a day pilot line. Sounds very simple to talk about. But you know, this is a super complex £50 million industrial process build that is very much akin to a typical manufacturing environment. That’s really about providing the industry with an asset that looks and feels like a real manufacturing line. You know, this is not a laboratory. No, this is absolutely a manufacturing environment. So when we bring people to do research there, be though from our customers, be there from universities, academics, apprentices, or people that are interested in work experience, they get a real flavor of what industry is like. And we can really deliver some unique programs in that environment that you really can’t do anywhere else in the world. Not just from a technology perspective, alternative fuels circular, secondary raw material tests, but also, training and developmentin a really unique environment.

Jo Stansfield 

Wow, that’s amazing. And it sounds like it’s not only doing all of those technical things, but it’s encouraging different ways for organizations to work together as well.

Aston Fuller 

Collaboration. I know Bruce talked about collaboration across different industries. I really get that sense that we’re in the age of collaboration. The time of organizations being ultra competitive and ultra close door is sort of diminishing by virtue of the fact that everyone realizes they’ve got the same mountain to climb. And I think as we sit and talk about EDI, that’s really important to recognize that the skills agenda, attracting people to do industries and actually having environments that people feel comfortable to work in that are aligned with the fact that we have different generations with different approaches to work. They’ve all got the same challenge and issue as well. So a big common thread that runs through this whole foundation industries.

Jo Stansfield 

Yeah, I love that. The age of collaboration. I think this is a great point to bring in you, Nana, thinking about skills and the future workforce. So your role is Chief Impact Officer, the 10,000 Interns Foundation, can you tell us what does that mean?

Nana Campbell 

Sure. Hi, Jo. Thanks for having me. So, how about I start with a little overview of the 10,000 Interns Foundation, and then I can bring him what I do, because I fear that Chief Impact Officer doesn’t make a whole heap of sense to a lot of people. But the 10,000 Interns Foundation is a charity founded three, four years ago with a humble mission to provide 100 paid internships to young black students and graduates in investment management. We now work across 30 or so industries across the UK providing paid internships to minoritised candidates. 2000 young people go through our programs each year. So essentially, what we’re doing is we’re promoting equity of opportunity in the workplace. And what that means in practice is that we’re challenging under representation and providing diverse opportunities to diverse talent. My role as Chief Impact Officer is essentially understanding whether we’re meeting our mission as an organization, and whether we are having an impact on the individuals that go through our programs lives, and whether we are changing workplaces for the better.

Jo Stansfield 

Wow, that’s amazing. What a mission, creating that equity of opportunity across so many industries. How do you see this is going to change the face of British business? What’s going to change it as a result of the work that you’re all doing?

Nana Campbell 

I think that the key is we want everybody to be able to choose for themselves how they contribute to our society. Right now, we think that talent is equally distributed, but opportunity isn’t. And the best of business is not getting through the doors. So not only is that kind of holding us back from an innovation perspective, but it’s also ensuring racial wealth gaps and disability employment gaps. Gender employment gaps stay intact. So we believe that when everybody is equitably empowered, industries will reflect the incredible diversity of the UK. I think that we all know now that diversity of thought leads to better business outcomes. So for example, just take some of the stats published by LinkedIn recently that I’ve got here somewhere. They say that diverse companies earn 2.5% higher cash flow per employee, that inclusive teams over 35% more productive, and that diverse teams make better decisions 80% of the time. So I think that the proof is there, right? And when I talk about diversity, like I said, I’m referring to diversity in ethnicity, but also socio economic diversity, gender, disability, etc. So if we’re talking about enabling diverse workforces, we’re also talking about better business outcomes, and a fairer society, without sounding too corny.

Jo Stansfield 

A fairer society doesn’t sound corny. That sounds amazing.

Sue Black 

Wonderful. Yeah. Yeah, so a question to everyone then really, what more can we all be doing in the foundation industries to attract a more diverse workforce? Bruce, maybe come back to you.

Bruce Adderley 

Building from what Nana was just saying there, for me, it’s all around opportunity. There’s two elements for that. There is really making sure that the opportunity for anybody to join these industries is there. And clearly, historically, the ways that the industries had gone about that tended to mean that perhaps opportunity was not wasn’t not there for all. And I think also, we’ve touched on already, there is making people aware that those opportunities exist, and that those opportunities are diverse in many, many ways. Certainly, I think there is still a perception out there that these are big, heavy industries, dirty places, you don’t really want to work. They’re old industries, nothing’s changed. They’re not taking up the new technologies. They’re not modern industries. And the reality couldn’t be further from the truth. To be at the point where we can supply the materials that these industries produce on a global level, in a way that many can make use of them, has required enormous amounts of innovation and diverse input from people with lots of different skills, lots of different backgrounds, over the years. But we’ve got to go with it, again, because we’re all about to go through a complete step change in terms of what we need to deliver in terms of a sustainable society, and therefore, these sustainable materials. So I think we’ve got to really focus on getting out there to show people that there is the opportunity, but clearly in parallel, making sure that when they do come looking, the opportunity is really there. Because there’s a danger in saying, “Look, we need all these different types of people”. But then when push comes to shove, and they knock on the door, they find the opportunity’s not there. So it’s those two things go hand in hand that I think a key.

Sue Black 

Yeah, absolutely. Laura, what are your thoughts?

Laura Baker 

Yeah, I mean, I wholeheartedly agree with everything Bruce has said. I think the thing I would add is the importance of role models. I think it is so important that youngsters particularly, but anyone entering a new career can see people that look like them, have the same background as them, have the same challenges as them doing the role. And certainly when I joined the steel industry, 25 years ago, there were very few women in senior roles. That is changing, it’s changing a bit too slowly, in my opinion, but it is changing. And now that now youngsters can look and see women, ethnic minorities, different backgrounds in senior roles, rather than than it be the sort of traditional backgrounds that you’d expect in in these types of industries. But unfortunately, that takes time. So we’ve really got to, as Bruce says, get out there. Those of us that can be role models in a different way, just get out there and really make ourselves known. And hopefully that paves the way for the next generation to see a different world and a different stereotype.

Sue Black 

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you and Aston, what else can we be doing?

Aston Fuller 

Probably not necessarily answering the question directly. But a bit of a statement as someone that’s joined the industry in a slightly different time period than Bruce and Laura. My assessment is that the industry, almost up until the early 2000s, has just been losing people, and diminishing the size of its workforce as we brought automation in. The plant where I worked in Barnsley used to employ 2000 people in the early 1900s,  to go down to 400 staff, and even less. It’s essentially just lost people over a longer period of time. So if we talk about some of these other industries,  things like med tech startups in the life sciences sector, these are pretty glamorous industries that are attracting quite a lot of people into some pretty interesting and sometimes well paid roles. I think the challenge the foundation industries had, and is starting to get over and move beyond is the fact that it didn’t really look for lots of new staff over the late 90s and early 2000s. And it’s now come to that challenging part where actually it’s got a relatively ageing workforce that highly specialized. But it’s now got this huge amount of technology change that needs to happen. We’re not just going to do the same thing that we’ve done for the last 30 years. So that means you do need people that have got very deep knowledge of this industry, but you also need people that are learning about automation and robotics that are coming in. So the challenge that the industry has got, without a doubt, is that it’s competing against stuff that a lot of young graduates that are looking at the world around them, probably won’t see is probably the starting point. But then when they look at it compared to some of the other roles… Talk about LinkedIn. How many people does LinkedIn employ? I can’t even imagine how many data analytics, scientists and everything are employed by a lot of these big sort of gig economy type organizations. So I think the challenging thing that industry has to do, I do believe it’s on this journey. And I’ve seen these steps in lots of different areas. But it’s about making sure that not just are those opportunities available, but it has to get on the front foot and asked to actually go out and tell people about them. Actually make people aware. I never knew that I would love being a professional pyromaniac. But you know, you walk into that factory, and you see hot pieces of glass being thrown around machines. There’s just something inside me that that just struck a chord with you. I’d never seen that process. And I walked in at the age of 21, and was just blown away. If we don’t bring people into these environments, when they’re in that, deciding what they’re going to do for a career path perspective, they’re never going to know it really exists. So how do we open the door on these industries, and really get lots of people through the door from lots of different backgrounds and lots of different areas of the country and really let them see that these are the things that they can do, that are of interest. So I probably answered the question by the end anyway.

Sue Black 

Thank you. So then is what we need really like a big PR campaign just to show what opportunities are out there. I mean, that is partly what Jo and I are doing by creating this podcast to just get the message out there. What do you think, Bruce?

Bruce Adderley 

I mean, I think there is a big PR thing. As Aston was speaking a minute go, my mind rolled back 25 years. So I was relatively early in the steel industry. And I can remember walking around the big steel mills that Laura will know well and thinking, Oh, my God, how does this actually all work? And keep consistently work? Why does it not just fall over all the time? It’s absolutely incredible. Yeah. And my brain was going, we need to create almost like a theme park that is based around these sort of places, just to actually show people what’s going on. It quite clearly became evident that I was never going to get something like that off the ground. But maybe I didn’t try hard enough. But when I look at the facility that Aston is now putting together. So it’s a new build facility, and they are putting it together in a way that it will be accessible for people to be able to go in on walkways, and look at it done in the right way. Then there is there is an opportunity to show the right people at the right age, that look, there’s this fantastic thing that you can get involved in. And even if only a small fraction of the people who come through on those sort of tours goes, “Do you know what? This really looks interesting. And when I leave school or leave university or whatever, I’m going to take a look at this”. I think that’d be absolutely fantastic. Because I I do think there is a case for just getting more people through the door to see what they are. Because so often we can’t do that. Because they are dangerous environments and have to be carefully controlled. So we need to find ways to be able to show people these things. I know we’ve had some goes, Laura might talk about it, at Port Talbort. Tere’s been some virtual tours made. I don’t know how successful that’s been. Perhaps you might like to comment about that. Has that worked?

Laura Baker 

As you were talking, that’s what sprang to mind. I wholeheartedly agree. When we do have tours around our facilities, inevitably people leave absolutely awestruck by the size and the challenge and just the engineering mastery that exists in these big industries. So yeah, I think there absolutely is something about getting people through the doors. Virtual reality is a tool that we’ve experimented with. We’ve taken taking our headsets out on the road to recruitment events, and schools, events and science fairs and stuff  and we always have a very long queue to look at it. So I think it’s a technology that we can exploit more and more, I think, where we can’t actually physically get people through the doors for all the reasons Bruce says. I think technology today allows us to bring that environment to people in a way that we’ve probably never been able to do before. So absolutely. I think that’s an area that we can explore more.

Laura Baker 

Maybe that’s our next challenge, Jo, is to set up a theme park.

Laura Baker 

See if we can get Bruce to fund it.

Sue Black 

And so actually as you were talking, I was thinking that a few years ago when I was in Sheffield for something, I went my son and daughter to a place near Sheffield, which was something a bit like that. Does anyone, maybe Aston, you know that place? I can’t remember it was called.

Aston Fuller 

Is it maybe Magna in Rotherham?

Sue Black 

Yeah. Yeah.

Aston Fuller 

Can I just ask Nana, so one of the things that we’ve built a brand new facility in St. Helens. And you know, when I go through the census, I’m not a census expert by any stretch. So I’m going to put a few assumptions here. I think one of the big challenges is, so I spent my formative years in the gas industry working in Barnsley. And we build a new factory in St. Helens, which has got a rich history of glassmaking going back literally hundreds of years. But actually, when you look at the general demographics for these areas that do tend to be, compared to other parts of the country, a high percentage of white British people that live there. These industries aren’t built in the middle of cities. You haven’t got 165,000 square foot glass manufacturing facility with a 40 meter tall brand new stack being built in the middle of Manchester, or just next to the Millennium Dome, because it’s a good place for a plant. So one of my perceptions is that we talk about getting people to see these industries and view them, is that typically, a lot of these jobs for heavy manufacturing industries tend to be in places that aren’t big metropolitan areas. The use of hybrid work and etc, means that I think these jobs are probably more accessible, because it’s less traditional that everyone’s absolutely on site every day for a lot of the more supporting roles. I’m super impressed by the sort of mission and approach for the 10,000 Interns Foundation and doing a bit of reading around it. I mean, is this something that you see when you’re interacting with people around doing internships? Do people really want to leave London to go and do an internship somewhere really far away that they’re not aware of, and doesn’t really reflect the sort of diverse geography that people are actually used to, and the sort of environment people used to living in. Is that something you see as a big challenge in this area?

Nana Campbell 

Definitely. I think that when we consider demographics and demographic spread of the UK, it poses a couple of challenges. The first is around attraction, which is what I’m hearing you talk about your challenge being. And then the second is probably industrial workplace readiness to take on and include diverse talent. I think in terms of attraction. So from the foundation’s perspective, we work across the UK and we have internship placements from Cornwall, right the way up to Glasgow, but the attraction piece is definitely a specific challenge. What we do is we go into universities up and down the country. So we have partnerships with around 90 different UK unis. We do a lot of online activations. So that looks like leveraging platforms like LinkedIn, Instagram, social media. We basically use the channels that kind of target audiences and target demographics exist on and we use that as an education piece. So, kind of harking back to what Bruce was saying, it’s about knowledge sharing and boosting awareness of the industries that you’re working across. I think that that’s really, really key. But I heard from the rest of the conversation that the other other challenges are around, firstly, opportunity, and then representation as well. And I think that aside from the education piece, there’s an internal piece. What can the industry do? What can workplaces do more specifically, to create inclusive environments that are welcoming of a diverse workforce? Are they ready to include diverse talent? I think that diversity strategies and efforts have to be informed by local demographic data. And they have to also understand local community’s cultural literacy. So perhaps slightly tangential, but for example, if we’re talking about regions and geographies where diverse talent might be fairly low, we need to be recognizing that pace and progress can only go as fast as the slowest person in the room. So for real change to take hold diversity, by think must be understood through relevant experiences. So for example, the black population of Gloucestershire, I think, stands at less than 2%. But it’s also an area of huge socio economic disparity, there’s also large Eastern European migration pattern. So connecting the struggles of these minoritized communities is probably more important, in my opinion, than visibly changing diversity in the industry. So if we can make a change for the few people that do come through the doors that are diverse candidates, I think that that’s probably better than trying to change the ratio of diverse talent compared to local demographic statistics. Does that answer your question? I think it’s sort of twofold.

Aston Fuller 

Yes it definitely does. And I think it’s just something that I found really interesting from a foundation industries perspective is these are generally in industrial heartland type locations, and actually when we talk about demographics and diversity, I think that the socio economic background piece is much of a conversation that we need to talk about for foundation industries is anything else. Machine operators, people that are operating equipment on shift on a 24/7 basis, aren’t typically graduates and highly educated people or doctorates. They actually make up a really small percentage of the workforce, where the large majority of the workforce tends to be apprentice trained engineers, or operators that come in and work their way through because they’re quite competent. I think there’s definitely some niches around this industry that I think need to be really well understood to help actually overcome some of these challenges that we see.

Nana Campbell 

Yeah, absolutely. And I think if it’s about incorporating a diverse skill set to your workplace, or to your industry, then again, it’s probably twofold, right? It’s that education piece around the industries themselves, boosting awareness of the opportunities that are available. I think it’s sharing personal lived experiences like yours, Aston, and through channels like this podcast. And then there’s also the upskilling piece right, as well. So there’s probably also opportunity to work with local communities to upskill local people as well. So I wonder if there’s maybe a kind of two pronged approach there.

Aston Fuller 

Could I ask, from a steel perpective, Laura in particular, is that a comment around the operator workforce, etc, is that something that you feel is one of the things that the steel industry is probably has in common with the glass industry, which is typically a majority of those operators and key workforce tend to be in post for quite a long period of time.  Aren’t from generally… might have had a family member that worked there before. So they joined 20 years ago, and they’re probably expected to be there for another 20 years. Is that common across the steel sector as well?

Laura Baker 

Yeah, it definitely is. I think it is probably less common than it used to be. But I think there’s definitely an aging demographic, definitely, the vast majority of the workforce will live in the local community. And those local communities, as you’ve already said, are not necessarily diverse. But I pick up on something that Nana said that I think what’s what’s really important is not that we we try and say, “oh, you know, the foundation industry should have equal percentage of people from various backgrounds”. I think that’s unrealistic, I think what’s important is that when you have diverse people within the organization that they have the same opportunity. So what you can’t have, and which I think is still prevalent in a lot of the foundation industries is a good percentage of diversity at lower levels in the organization. But then when you reach the top of the organization, it’s still very traditionally white male, middle class. So I think that should be the focus, at least in the medium term, to make sure that people that are in the organization are all treated equitably, and have the same opportunities. And then, once we’ve got that bit, right, we can look at attracting more and more individuals. Because otherwise, I think we’re kidding ourselves, quite frankly.

Nana Campbell 

Yeah. Laura, I think that that’s such a great point. I think that there are two separate challenges, right? Talent attraction at the bottom of the pipeline in the early career space is definitely different to retention and progression within an organization. And they require different strategies and different solutions. They think that one also empowers the other or supports the other. If we see progression through an organization, then we’re boosting representation. That representation that you were talking about earlier. And then that, in turn will help with attraction, as well. So I think that everything’s interconnected.

Sue Black 

Well, I’m afraid we have to end our general conversation there because we’ve run out of time. We’ve got our quickfire questions. I feel like we could do a whole other bonus episode on the topic that we just got to really, so maybe, Jo and I’ll have a chat about whether that’s possible at all. Thanks so much for the amazing conversation. It’s just been really, really interesting and really thought provoking. So thank you all so much. So we’ve got our quickfire questions now. And first one is what is your favorite thing about the foundation industries and why and maybe go to Aston first.

Aston Fuller 

Materials on the edge, I absolutely love it. A box running at 1600 degrees Celsius and when the bricks will start melting at 1650 degrees Celsius. I just love something about that. It’s cool.

Sue Black 

Yeah, that sounds great. Laura.

Laura Baker 

Yeah, big, big engineering, but I think also just, well, the clue’s in the title. It’s the foundation of society.

Sue Black 

Great. Thank you, Nana.

Nana Campbell 

Well, I mean, I’m just learning about the foundation industry.

Sue Black 

Yeah, it’s unfair of us to ask you

Nana Campbell 

Having had a couple of conversations with you guys, now I’m considering a career change. So attraction, working well.

Sue Black 

Oh my god. That’s amazing. Thank you. Bruce.

Bruce Adderley 

Well, for me, to be honest, it’s an age based thing. And that is a combination of what Aston and Laura said. Earlier I said, as I was first into the industry, it really was the bit about, these are incredible industries, the engineering and making things happen in it. And it’s hot and creative, and the amazing things that are made of all these products. But now as I’ve moved towards the role that I’m in and what I hope to do in the future, it is literally about the fact that these materials are the foundations of our society. That we talk in terms of when people discuss what you have to have to actually have a society, you have to have energy, you have to have a transport system, you have to have a communication system, you have to have a food production system. And I would argue that we need to be talking in terms of, we have to have this material system, and we have to have a sustainable material system. Otherwise, going forward, we won’t have a society, either as we know it now, or as we want it in the future. And so that’s what really confuses me about foundation industries right now.

Sue Black 

That’s great. Thank you, Bruce. And so because it’s the last episode, Jo and I have got our answers to the questions as well, I just realized we haven’t conferred. So we might say the same things.

Jo Stansfield 

We might do.

Sue Black 

Hopefully, we won’t. So Jo, how about you?

Jo Stansfield 

Yeah, the moment we’re put on the spot after a series of listening to amazing answers from guests. I mean, for me, my favorite thing about the foundation industries is linked back to my career before being an EDI practitioner, when I made industrial software. And all of the software is the kind of stuff that’s running the control systems and managing the information that comes from it. But I have to say being there in person for the visits that we’ve made has just been incredible. I have so loved it. Just the scale, the physicality, the heat, seeing glass going flying around, little nuggets like lightsabers at Encirc when we went to that visit. Just loved it. Just amazing.

Sue Black 

Wonderful, thank you. Well, thank goodness, it’s not exactly the same as mine. Which is really, that they’re just everywhere. And I didn’t even know that. You know, like Professor Mark Jolly said in the first episode. I think 75% of products around us come from the foundation industries, and I had absolutely no clue about that. So it’s their ubiquity and the fact that they’re, they’re all around us. So it’s good. We didn’t have the same answer for that one, thank goodness. Okay, next question. Which foundational material would you find it hardest to live without? And we just do the same order? Who do I go to first. Aston?

Aston Fuller 

I mean, I can’t give any other response, can I? I’d be lambasted for it. I would say glass, obviously. But I think to give people an idea, the thing that really made me fall in love with it as a material is the sort of plant where I started that used to have 2000 people on site, used to also have glass blows. This is an industry that really was artisanal. So if you look around the the applications of glass. I think the thing I love about it is it’s both functional, but it’s also artistic. And I’m an awful artist, but if there’s one thing I understand it’s gravity and heat. So there’s something that I really love about just doing a bit of glassblowing. Because it’s that intersection of engineering and art, which for me is the intersection of materials and culture. So for me, it will be fast, because it’s functional, but it also has a lot of form about it as well. And sometimes you just get hunk of glass, because it looks nice. And so we can probably apply that across all the materials as well, I imagine.

Sue Black 

So yeah, that’s great. Thanks, Aston. Laura.

Laura Baker 

I’m getting quite excited to find out more about glass to be honest, but I better say steel. And the reason I say steel is because I think we take it for granted. But I think there’s some evidence that says if things aren’t made of steel, then they’re made using equipment which is made from steel. So without it quite frankly, you can’t make anything and our society would be a very different place if we didn’t have it. So yeah, although I think I’m gonna go and visit Aston and find out a bit more about glass as well, because that sounds quite exciting.

Sue Black 

That’s great. Thanks, Laura. Nana.

Nana Campbell 

I think I might need a refresher on all of the foundation materials. I know that ceramics is one and I know that Jo and Sue you also educate me and said not in the artisanal sense, but in the foundational sense. I’m a ceramicist by a hobby, which is clearly not quite the same thing, but it draws me to ceramic as a foundational material. Though I have to agree with Laura. I’ve learned a lot about glass and it sounds like from an artistic standpoint, it might be the one to go with Thanks Aston for that information. But Bruce and Aston have given such a wonderful intro on glass, so I might have to land there. Great. Thanks, Nana. Bruce.

Bruce Adderley 

Well, I’d say Nana, that in terms of the foundation industries and the program on the ceramics, it is literally everything from your chinaware through bricks and your roof tiles, ceramics that are in your phones, advanced ceramics, but also, I’m going to join two things together here. Obviously, the sanitary ware in your bathrooms, etc. And it’s actually for that reason that I’m going to actually say, paper is the thing that I couldn’t do without.

Sue Black 

Yeah

Bruce Adderley 

On a broad basis, it impacts us health wise, in many ways, but also from a personal reason. And it’s the way you brought up to do things and the way you learn to do things best. I still need stuff in front of me on a piece of paper on many occasions, to be able to concentrate best and bring my best into a discussion or analysis of something. And without looking at it on paper, I find it so much harder to do. So for me, I really couldn’t do without paper for many ways.

Sue Black 

Yeah, that’s a really good point, Bruce. If I’ve got research papers to edit, I have to print them out. I can’t just edit stuff on screen. I don’t know why, but maybe the same sort of thing. Be interesting to know if that’s the same for people younger than us. Jo.

Jo Stansfield 

Oh, Bruce totally stole my answer. No one in the rest of the series has said this.  Well, paper is my way of thinking, I cannot think without paper. I’m surrounded by notebooks. I’ve got about 10 different notebooks on my desk for different chains of thoughts. So that you can actually get that understanding, you can work things through. And it’s the foundational piece to actually help understand and calculate. And all of the engineering that then flows from that and turns into these great physical operating things, will have started with people capturing their thoughts, and working it through using pencil and paper, most likely. But I also really relate to the artistic elements that Nana and Aston brought in. So when my hobby is painting, not that I ever have time to do my hobby. But in my dream world, when I have some time to do it, I love to do some painting. And yeah, again, you could not do that without the paper.

Sue Black 

Wonderful. Well, so thank goodness, my answer is different. And mine relates to my hobby. So mine is steel because I love knitting, I just do so much knitting. It’s my way to relax every evening, sitting down watching something on TV and knitting at the same time. And goodness knows how many jumpers I’ve knitted for myself and children and grandchildren and friends over the years. So mine is steel because my favorite knitting needles, well, I think are made of steel. They’re not made of paper, I know that. Or ceramics. Okay, that’s great, wonderful answers. Thank you very much. All right. Next question. Which material is most like your personality? And why Aston?

Aston Fuller 

Oh I was dreading this question. The only answer that comes to mind is glass because it’s cold and brittle. But that’s probably just my tongue in cheek answer that comes to mind. But I think in reality, I’d probably go for paper on this, front in truth. And I don’t know why. But you start off as a blank sheet of paper. And actually, it’s the information that goes on it that makes the difference. I’ll go for that.

Sue Black 

Oh, tthank you. Laura.

Laura Baker 

Well I’m gonna go steal obviously. And I’m gonna say that’s because it’s complex and underestimated.

Sue Black 

Great, thank you. Nice answer. Thanks, Laura. Nana,

Nana Campbell 

Goodness, I’m tempted to say pass. I’m also going to go with steel, because my understanding of steel is that is pretty resilient. And I like to think that I can be pretty resilient. I say with a question mark!

Sue Black 

Wonderful. Thanks, Nana. Bruce,

Bruce Adderley 

Well, I’m gonna have to cheat. Because in the end, you know, my job is about foundation industries in general. When I do self analysis about how have I managed to achieve what I have, and had an enjoyable career, I think it’s because I’ve been adaptable, and have been able to weave together a number of different attributes. And so for me, it’s the collective of the different foundation industry materials that I relate to, and bringing the best of all of them to whatever the task is in hand. Fit for purpose, I think, is therefore my view across the materials in the foundation industries.

Sue Black 

Wonderful, thanks, Bruce for cheating. Jo

Jo Stansfield 

I’m gonna go with glass, for its optical properties, that it brings clarity and you can use it to gain focus. And those are the things that I really value and try and bring to everything that I do.

Sue Black 

Great. Thank you. And what would I do without my glasses, I wouldn’t be able to see anything. Well, so mine. Like you, Bruce actually, I couldn’t think of just one industry or property. So what I thought of was actually a combination of ceramics and metals. And I was thinking of when I went to the National Portrait Gallery a long time ago. And saw Grayson Perry’s exhibition, and he had some pottery, which was mended with gold, which I just looked up, and it’s called Kintsugi. And I just thought that was amazing. And I read the details about it and it said that, with broken pots mending them with gold actually makes the pot more beautiful. I’m not saying that I’m beautiful. That’s not why I’m saying it. But I just feel like, I’ve had lots of challenges in my life. So I’vefelt a bit broken quite a lot of times. But actually, those experiences happening to me have helped me to become the person that I am today. So I thought that maybe I’m a bit like a Kintsugi pot.

Jo Stansfield 

Oh, that’sa beautiful answer, Sue.

Sue Black 

Oh, well, thank you. Oh, now we’ve got a final question for the final episode. Sorry, I almost forgot about that. So what is your biggest hope for the future of the foundation industries? And we’ll do the same order again, Aston.

Aston Fuller 

I think my biggest hope is that Bruce talked a little bit earlier about that without these materials, we wouldn’t have the world that we want to live in. I think the reality is, I’ve always been super interested in sci fi. So I’ve got a long term hope and vision for the world. And my hope is that these are the materials that actually get us through what is the most difficult and challenging part of civilization. And people recognize that due to these materials, we’re part of a truly sustainable future. Because you know, the risk is that maybe we don’t overcome some of the biggest and most difficult challenges. And society doesn’t go the way that everyone wants and hopes that it goes. So, you know, my hope is that actually, we do move into that sustainable world that I think civilization knows we can have. And it recognizes that the role of these materials in that sustainable world is absolutely critical.

Sue Black 

Wonderful. Thank you, Laura.

Laura Baker 

Yeah, I think is similar answer to Aston. I think we can probably all agree that most of the foundation industries, if not all have been in slow, but steady decline over a number of decades. And I think we have a real opportunity now with the sustainability challenges that we have to meet as a society, to really reposition where the foundation industries sit and the perception of them. And my hope is that they continue to thrive and provide careers and what have you for the next generations in the same way that we’ve enjoyed careers in them. So yeah, I hope that this is a new dawn for the foundation industries. And we’ll get bigger and better from here.

Sue Black 

That’s great. Thanks, Laura. Nana,

Nana Campbell 

I guess for me, it seems as though the foundation industries are relevant for everybody in society. So I guess my hope is that the industry in turn becomes a relevant industry for everyone. So that a diverse range of people can have an input into how material world manifests, and what it looks like for them, for us, for future generations. So yeah, that it stays relevant, becomes relevant. That would be my hope.

Sue Black 

That’s great. Thank you, Bruce.

Bruce Adderley 

Yeah, well, I mean, I completely agree with everything everybody else has already said. I think the one thing I would add, and it is a personal reflection. I’ve had a fantastic 30 years working in the foundation industries. Done all sorts of great things, things that I would never have imagined when I was 25, that I would have done by the time was 55. So I think my wish is that, as many people as possible, from as wide a range of backgrounds as possible, have the opportunity to do the sort of things that I’ve had a chance to get involved in, and they too can have tremendously satisfying and enjoyable careers in the foundation industries in the decades to come.

Bruce Adderley 

Well, that’s wonderful. Thanks, Bruce. Jo, can you follow that, Jo?

Jo Stansfield 

No, absolutely not. I think we should let Bruce have the final word on this particular one.

Sue Black 

I quite agree. I was hoping you’d say that. Right, thank you so much, everyone. It’s been fantastic conversation, a fantastic episode. And well, I’m sad now that this is our last episode, but maybe we can find some opportunity to do some bonus episodes or something for this series. So we’ve had a fantastic time, haven’t we, Jo, chatting to everybody?

Jo Stansfield 

It’s been brilliant. Yeah, such fun. And actually, we’ve covered so many topics. We’ve learned so much about the foundation industries, the different perspectives, different angles on diversity and inclusion, sustainability, circularity. It’s just been fantastic so massive thank you to all of the guests.

Sue Black 

Absolutely. Same for me. Thanks everyone

Sue Black

Thank you for joining us for this Equity Edge episode.

Jo Stansfield

This Podcast can be found on our website www.transfire-hub.org/podcast and is also available on all good podcast channels.

Sue Black

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