Production, Protection and Provision:  Metal

In this episode of The Equity Edge our industry focus is metal. Host Jo Stansfield is joined by guests Pam Murrell, Chief Executive Officer of the Cast Metals Federation and director of the UK Metals Council, Katherine Evans, Chartered Geologist and Founder of Bold as Brass, advocating for gender equity in mining and construction, and Jon Bolton, a prominent figure in the UK Steel industry and current Chair of the Materials Processing Institute.

We learn how inclusive is metals manufacturing for workers of today and in the future. We hear from metals industry experts and explore practical actions for inclusion.  The guests examine the need to widen the workforce through policies that make the industry accessible for all, and discuss the environmental issues in E.S.G.  They focus on PPE, facilities and the mental health and wellbeing issues for female staff and recognise that “one size fits no one”.

Meet our guests

Episode Transcript

Episode Transcript

Sue Black

Welcome!  The Equity Edge is all about shaping tomorrow’s foundation industries, with a focus on EDI – that’s equity, diversity, and inclusion, and how it can help us achieve a sustainable and fairer future.

I’m Professor Sue Black. I’m Professor of computer science and technology evangelist at Durham University, leading pioneering initiatives like our award winning TechUPWomen programme championing diversity in STEM

Jo Stansfield

And I’m Jo Stansfield. I’m an engineer-turned-business-psychologist specialising in equity, diversity and inclusion in engineering fields. Welcome to The Equity Edge podcast.

Sue Black

Together we are working with TransFIRe, a programme investigating how the foundation industries can develop innovative solutions to reduce waste and energy use, and to accelerate the development of clean technologies.

Jo Stansfield

These are the industries that make 75% of the materials we see around us, and are fundamental to modern society – they are: cement, metals, ceramics, glass, paper and chemicals.

 

Jo Stansfield 

Hi everybody. In this Equity Edge episode we’re talking about the metals industry and inclusive workplaces. Metals have been integral to human progress from ancient tools through to modern construction materials and electronics. But how inclusive is metals manufacture for workers of today and tomorrow? We will hear from metals industry experts and explore some practical actions for inclusion. Today we are joined by Pam Murrell, Chief Executive Officer of the Cast Metals Federation and director of the UK Metals Council. Welcome, Pam

Jo Stansfield 

And we have Katherine Evans, a Chartered Geologist and founder of Bold as Brass, advocating for gender equity in mining and construction. Welcome, Katherine.

Katherine Evans 

Hello.

Jo Stansfield 

And finally, we welcome Jon Bolton, one of the most prominent and widely respected figures in the UK Steel industry.

Pam Murrell 

Morning, hello

Jon Bolton 

(laughs)

Jo Stansfield 

He is currently chair of the Materials Processing Institute. That bit wasn’t meant to be funny!

Jon Bolton 

Good morning everybody.

Jo Stansfield 

Welcome, Jon. Sadly, Sue isn’t able to be here today, so it’s going to be me asking all of the questions. So Jon, let’s go to you first. You’ve spent your career in the steel industry, with lots of different board level roles in a number of different companies. Can you tell us a bit about the history of steelmaking in the UK? And how has it changed over time?

Jon Bolton 

Thanks, Jo. It’s changed enormously. I mean, I started as a student apprentice in 1980. And at that time, the industry was employing about 170,000 people. It had already reduced from about double that amount in the early 70s, and was producing around about 25 million tons of steel. And then through various changes, through privatization, through downturns in the in the industry, and efficiency improvements as well, where we currently employ 30,000 people, so a 10th of that,

Jo Stansfield 

Gosh

Jon Bolton 

And if you know, I’m sure some of you, well, all of you on the call know, you can multiply the number of direct employees by about four or five in the supply chain. And therefore that’s like 1.5 million people out of the steel and the steel related industries since 1970. And we now produce 7 million tonnes roughly. And that’s probably at the high side at the moment. We only use four. We actually import close to 11 million tons of steel into the UK. And that compares, if you look at the say Germany, for example – because we always compare ourselves with Germany because they support their industry in a different way – but they manufacture about 40 million tonnes, which is significantly more than they use because they export. So they’ve got a completely different approach. So it’s a very different thing. I know we’re going to come on to talk about it. And obviously it’s facing some different challenges at the moment around decarbonisation and continued restructuring.

Jo Stansfield 

Gosh, I mean, that’s an enormous change, isn’t it? Can you tell us how does the steel actually get produced? Our listeners may not be familiar with what happens in steel manufacture. How does steel get made?

Jon Bolton 

There are two main ways of making steel. So the one that’s sort of grown over the years is via the blast furnace. So it takes raw materials from all around the world, from Australia, North America, South America, so iron ore is mined. So virgin materials, iron ore, coal, and carbon in some form, but mainly coal, which is turned to coke. That is thrown into a blast furnace, the carbon reduces the iron ore into iron, which is tapped from the blast furnace and put into a steelmaking process where you add lots of different alloys, changes in the structure to make steel. And then the steel, once it’s liquid, can be cast into blooms and billets. Blooms are sort of large squares, and billets smaller squares and slabs, which involve wide products that go into strip. And then you get the all the various products that people will be familiar with come out as a result of that. So that’s the one that’s becoming… but the steelmaking process that’s becoming more prevalent, because as you can imagine, that huge process is very carbon intensive. And now, people are using electric arc furnaces more, which takes scrap and so basically recycles steel. It’s a hugely recyclable product is steel. That’s recycling it through electric arc furnaces. As the term implies, use electricity to create immense heat to melt the scrap, and then the process beyond that, in turning it to steel and rolling, it is the same.

Jo Stansfield 

Wow that’s really fascinating. Thank you, Jon. Pam, let’s go to you know. Obviously, there are more metals than steel and you work across many different types of metals. Can you give us a picture of what does the metals industry look like in the UK?

Pam Murrell 

Yeah, I probably could speak more confidently about the bit of the metals industry that I work in, which is the castings industry. And just picking up from Jon’s point, I mean, obviously our sector takes a lot of that secondary material. We recycle things and make metal components. So rather than big billets and ingots and things like that, what we tend to make is components that go into lots of other sectors. I mean, the wider metals sector, it’s obviously very diverse across in terms of the alloys. You’re covering right from cast iron right through to magnesium and titanium and lighter metals now. And I think it’s, I would say it’s very dominated by SMEs. So small and medium sized enterprises. I think people are always surprised how many businesses there are. And there are 1000s of businesses in the metal sector in the UK. As I say, we’re very much one part of it in the casting industry. We have about just over 300 foundries now, and they range, I mean, we’ve got Rolls Royce, for example, who making single crystal turbine blades, right to people making parts for cars, and for offshore wind, and the electricity industry for, you know, pumps and valves, and all sorts of things. Broadly, the metal sector is very diverse, dominated by smaller companies, a lot of family owned businesses, as well. So a lot of companies in the 50 to 150, perhaps slightly higher range. We’ve got a few larger companies in our sector, but also quite a lot of smaller ones as well. So obviously, they’re facing particular challenges around recruitment, retention, you know, just skills more generally. So, as I say the Metals Council is a grouping. We’re just one of those members. Jon, as he said, was Chair a little while back. But it’s it really crosses the gamut of companies. Not so many primary producers, although we have got the aluminium and the steel groupings in there. But then you go right down to, you know, people who are treating painting, coating, polishing, all sorts of things. Doing that sort of end of process side of things as well. So it’s enormously broad. Even our sector, we’ve got companies in Scotland, Essex, the southwest, you know, literally everywhere. But I think it’s generally unknown and unrecognized. We’re not very good at marketing ourselves as a sector. And that’s partly probably because it’s so diverse and because there are so many small businesses,

Jo Stansfield 

Yeah, I’m certainly surprised to hear actually just how diverse it is, and that so many of the businesses are small businesses. I certainly wouldn’t have known that without ever having been part of the TransFIRe program, to actually hear about all of these different businesses that exist. And like you say, you know, they are often not heard about, and not very much in public perception that there’s this big, big industry, and so many employers doing amazing work, that just doesn’t kind of reach the public consciousness.

Pam Murrell 

That was one of the issues, isn’t it, that sort of lack of broader recognition. And I think things have changed. There’s a lot more about, you know, awareness of how things are made. Lots of programs, and actually, people are really interested in how things are made. But I would say, you know, for metals, per se, this is not necessarily a golden age, but it’s a golden opportunity. Because there is this massive transition at the moment. I mean, Jon will know this, but a lot of mature economies, they almost become self sufficient in the secondary raw material, otherwise known as scrap. But it’s not scrap, because it’s not thrown away, it’s reused. And obviously, with the steel transition to to using more secondary material scrap on in the electric arc furnaces, that’s gonna have some really interesting effects on the wider industry. I would say, for metals, it’s, it’s time is now in a way, because it’s infinitely, or almost infinitely, recyclable. And as they mature, economies, they recognize that and become less about mining – and we will always need mining and raw materials and things like that – But a lot of mature economies actually recycle. And we’ve got a very strong recycling sector in this country. And we generate a lot of secondary raw materials. The disappointing thing at this moment is a lot of it gets exported, and we probably need to be more aware of our resources. I think we’ve all come to be aware of that. How things are made, where things are made, what materials we use, and that’s a huge discussion that’s going on at the moment. And actually, I would say it’s an opportunity for our sector, and a message that we should be getting out to people who want to be part of an industry that that makes things that we all need, and makes them in a way… We’re using electricity that’s sustainable, and actually products that people need and things that we’re going to need into the future. We should be making them at home. That’s the Holy Grail, I suppose, of the argument around the metal sector in the UK at the moment.

Jo Stansfield 

Absolutely, a big topic and really important to be pulling people into that workforce. And actually, that’s a great time, I think, to come on to you, Katherine, because your work is really all about making sure that our heavy industries are much more equitable. You know, you’ve been doing lots of advocacy work and really speaking out about some of the challenges that women, but not only women, face, working in these type of industries. So your background is as a geologist and you’ve worked in mining and health and safety, but now you founded the Bold as Brass tribe. Can you tell us about that? What’s that all about? And what’s your motivation for it?

Katherine Evans 

Bold as Brass is a gender equity group for women, and it began in women in mining, because we felt that there wasn’t anything gritty enough to actually help women with the way that we were completely othered in the industry. That we’ve been expected just to slot into an industry that was designed around men and made for men to succeed. And there is a definite lack of acceptance of our differences. And because of that, we aren’t able to progress.

Katherine Evans 

That’s where the equity side comes in.

Katherine Evans 

But if I take you back a bit further, because we’ve been talking a lot about metals, and it’s kind of my bag, the actual mining part of it, and the way that we currently don’t have enough mining workforce in this country to get all of the critical minerals we need for the Green Revolution. And I know there is this heavy emphasis on the circular economy and the way that we can just reuse everything, but we can’t. Because the grade of material over time as you’re recycling it is going down. So these critical minerals are desperately needed for us to actually reach these goals that the government has set.

Katherine Evans 

And this nimbyism that goes on in the UK is fueled by the media. It’s fueled by poor education levels in school. Because if I think back to when I was in school, and I was learning about mining, very positively because it’s South Wales, but when we started talking about quarrying, very different. Quarrying is bad because quarrying, never surface mining, like it’s called in every other country in the world. The quarry in causes dust, this vibration from blasting is dangerous because of the amount of the lorry movements every day. I don’t want to quarry in my back garden. It’s bad. But I do want a road, and a hospital, and school for my children to go to, and all these things are averse. I need steel, we need steel for the wind turbines. We need cement for the foundations of the wind turbines. But none of these things seem to get strung together. But we are very, very happy to keep importing it because it’s cheap. Because it’s produced in a country where they can make it cheaper because they don’t have the same level of regulations and environmental strategy and policy that we have. And I find it’s just so… It really really gets me.

Katherine Evans 

And when we talk about steelmaking, I can see the steam coming off the quenching tower at Port Talbot from my house. I can’t see Port Talbot. But I mean, Port Talbot is such an enormous place, and such an enormous piece of industry, that if you live in South Wales, you either know somebody’s work there, you’ve worked there. There is some part of you that is involved in the steelworks in Port Talbot. I’ve worked in a mine in Canada where we were producing the coal that was going there, but I’ve also worked in an underground mine just up the road where the coal wasn’t going there. Yeah, because it was a different grade of coal that we had anthracite where we need hard coking coal. And then I’ve produced the limestone in quarrying and just around the corner in Porthcawl that was going there to go into the blast furnace. People don’t realize where the coal comes into it, and the need for limestone. They see that coal has been incredibly negative and planet destroying, but they don’t see that chemical reaction inside the blast furnace, even though I’m sure they were taught it in school and forgotten. So yeah, it’s like you like hit on my thing there.

Pam Murrell 

It is a whole new policy. It’s almost like we want to live in a pastoral rural idyll, don’t we, with very green rolling hills, but actually still have all the stuff

Jo Stansfield 

That desire and the reality don’t don’t match up. Jon, I’ve seen you nodding along what what would you like to say on this topic?

Jon Bolton 

Well, it’s great. It’s great. I would say we could have a separate podcasts purely on mining and industry in metals. Fortunately, I’ve been on the downside of a lot of things. Katherine said, I totally agree with. They touch on self sufficiency and security of supply and making sure that we’re able to produce these things for the UK, and make the most of the resources we have in the UK. Sadly to say you won’t be able to see the quench tower, much longer, or not at all, because they had their last push at the coke ovens this week, which is again, you know, sad demise of the the sort of that part of the industry. But  I mean, coming to the topic, I guess I mean, I totally agree with Katherine’s comments around inclusiveness. I mean, things have changed dramatically. You can imagine I’ve seen massive changes in the workplace and the workplace was… Katherine’s quite right. It was not set up at all, there was no recognition, even that we needed to widen the pool from which we draw skills and people from. It was just accepted it was a male dominated industry. That’s what it was. That’s how it was. Now, I’ve seen that change a lot. And I think things today, there’s a lot more we can do. It’s a much different place, and you see policies that are dealing with issues like menopause. And so make it making sure the workplace is more accessible to as wide a group of people as possible, because we cannot afford to exclude anybody. Because we need those skills as we move in this transition to a new stage. As Pam says, there’s an opportunity here. That opportunity will be severely impacted if we don’t have the right skills. So yeah, we could have a separate podcast on on metals and mining, and maybe we should, Katherine. Sounds really interesting. But I think obviously on the topic of the skills and inclusiveness then this is a massive opportunity into something it’s not just an opportunity. It’s a necessity.

Pam Murrell 

Yeah, I would echo that. I mean, I think from our sector, we definitely have a recruitment and retention and a skills issue. So you’re absolutely right. If we’re almost setting out to exclude, you know, a good half of the population, we’re just not setting ourselves up for success. And I think probably it’s, some of it might seem to people like Katherine really blindingly obvious, but for those of us for whom it isn’t, we need it to be pointed out, don’t we, just had difficult it is. You know, it hadn’t struck me till probably about 15 years ago about PPE being all the wrong shape and the wrong size. And yet, when you think about it, it’s you know… Or the fact that you’d go somewhere and they didn’t ever have a boot in a size five, I’ve seen that change in the last sort of 15, 20 years or so. But, you know, things like proper toilets for women, as well with proper facilities and things like that. Or somewhere that actually someone you know, would want to go in and eat their lunch. That it’s clean and pleasant, and, you know, and nice and whatever. Not that the men don’t want that. They deserve decent toilet facilities and canteens and things like that. But I think it’s… we need it pointing out to us, don’t we, actually through examples, and then people can actually start to make changes. In our membership, I’ve got some outstanding companies who are doing some workshops on on things like menopause awareness for women and for their partners and the men in the company to be more accepting. Now, nobody talked about that even five or six years ago. So we’re on a massive journey, aren’t we? And actually, the fact that people can and do and will and are prepared to have these conversations I think is, is a positive, isn’t it? We’ve got a hell of a way to go, mind you. But I think, at least been having the conversations now.

Jo Stansfield 

Katherine, I’d love to bring you in and hear your thoughts from here.

Katherine Evans 

Yes, well, last week, I was in Scotland and I stood in front of 144 people, about 140 of them are men. And they showed an enormous picture of a vagina, to show how different we are. Different shapes of people. How it’s not just gender, ethnicity makes a big difference as well. And the way that our PPE is generally just shaped around Caucasian people means we’re already pushing people away. We’ve had the issue of women’s PPE for forever. And for the last 10 to 15 years women’s PPE has been available, but because we aren’t teaching through levels of NEBOSH, IOSH, we aren’t teaching health professionals or health and safety professionals about personal protective equipment. About how women and men differ in terms of the shape of their foot. The angle of their hips. Where women’s waist lines come in comparison to men. because they are higher than men’s. The way that men’s shoulders are broader than women’s, and they’re generally an upside down A shape. But women are more in at the waist, in Caucasian women, because when it comes to Asian and Black women, completely different. African women are completely different body shapes, length of legs, the point where the knee is, the elbows, that arms. All of these things are incredibly different. But when you have somebody who just sees of piece of PPE, like it is just another cost, they will pick commodity, price, lowest. It’ll be the man’s because it’s mass produced. And also, people aren’t thinking about the chain. We’ve all got ESG strategies, CSR strategies, social value that we have to think about. But we’re also buying a pair of trousers that cost nine pounds, and that nine pounds needs to be spread amongst every single person on that route. And there was a situation last year where a Regatta coat was bought by a woman. It wasn’t a safety coat, and it was in the in the papers. She felt that there was something hard in a sleeve. So when she she cut the coat open, because she couldn’t wear it with this thing in the sleeve. Pulled it out, and it was a Chinese prison workers card. And these notes and pieces of evidence keep turning up in things to show that there is forced labor behind a lot of things in this country. And that company was actually with an ethical industry. What’s the word, when it’s like you’ve got to, I can’t think what the word is…

Pam Murrell 

When you adhere to a sort of a policy and a framework, but they weren’t accredited.

Katherine Evans 

Yeah. They were accredited with an ethical industry body. But it wasn’t being followed through. So there was a breakdown at some point. And I really worry about the prices that we’re paying for PPE, because at some point, I feel there is this forced labor, I know of companies who have been done for child labor. To pay this little money for things, we need to think about why and how. And there’s a massive focus on the green credentials of things. And ESG is something that I’m going into. The E is really, really focused on, the S and the G is being left behind. Because of this, you can’t be seen to be anti environment, or not doing the right thing for the environment. But we very quickly not thinking about the communities that are affected by the things that we want, and we’re willing to pay for. In Europe, they’ll pay a lot more. Like continental Europe, they pay so much more money than we do on pieces of PPE, because they see it as safety equipment, not just a garment or a piece of uniform. And then when we come onto welfare, the welfare thing is usually the second thing that women want to talk to me about, is their lack of facilities. They can’t get to a toilet, because we work on sites that are out in the fields, a lot of time when you’re a geologist, there’s exploration. Obviously, it’s very difficult to get toilets into these situations. However, there are toilet cubicles that can be brought onto places and kept in a permanent physical, well, semi permanent position, and they are solar powered. So that could be something that could just be put into a field for a certain amount of time. And this is the base that you come back to. If you’re experiencing a period whilst out on site, how do you keep yourself clean to be able to change these products, because it’s the, it’s the pushing of bacteria back into the vaginal cavity when you are on your period, and perhaps you’re coming to the end of a period. And you may be using tampons that are too absorbent for your flow. Because you know that you’re not going to be able to get to the toilet as often as you can, that pushing in and pulling out that cotton rips the skin because it’s dry, which leaves tiny little micro entries for the bacteria. If you’ve got nothing to wash your hands with and all the bacteria that you can find in field, then there’s potentially you’re pushing that back into your body.

Pam Murrell 

I don’t want a job in a field like that. I mean, that’s the blatant obvious isn’t it. You’re not going to stay in a business or in a company that doesn’t look after you in that respect, does it? So I suppose it’s that whole thing about the model. You talked about the PPE as well. How are we… We talk about greenwashing, you know, everybody’s trying to jump on and be seen to be doing the right thing. And I mean, the textile industry is the same, isn’t it. You know, the auditing, the supply chain. These are hugely challenging things for any business to look after. When at the end of the day, they’re trying to get the products on the lorry and out at the end of the week. You know, that’s their primary purpose, isn’t it, at the end of the day, is to sell products and make a profit. But all of this comes with it. So it’s, it’s enormously challenging.

Pam Murrell 

If you can come back the toilet thing and then not wanting to work in a field. It’s not just fields, the construction.

Pam Murrell 

No, I mean, I was being slightly facetious. But you know what I mean? It’s the same. It’s the same thing as that if you’re working in any business, I mean, there was a film years ago, I think it was about the women who were involved in, in maths for one of the big projects, and  they had to walk to another building, to go to the toilet and people but bosses were wondering why they were late all the time, it was because they couldn’t get to the loo. And it took him 15 minutes to get to a different building and back. So that was years and years ago, that was sort of in the 30s and 40s, or whatever, it was the same conversation. It’s the same sort of, that sort of transition to being more inclusive and understanding. Whether you have a prayer room somewhere, whether you have washing facilities, they’re all part of the same sort of inclusive environment, aren’t they?

Katherine Evans 

But I want to go back to that thing about the toilet because I want to finish

Pam Murrell 

Go on sorry, yes.

Katherine Evans 

About toxic shock.

Pam Murrell 

Oh, yes.

Katherine Evans 

That’s when you are pushing certain types of bacteria that are very, very available everywhere, in bathrooms.

Katherine Evans 

And when you go into a toilet in a construction site, often on quarrying sites, the women’s toilet has become the storeroom for every piece of cleaning equipment. So these gems are also on the cleaning equipment that has been spread around the entire site. But the women are having to move things out of the way then finding there is no soap, there is no hand gel, they have to change period products.

Katherine Evans 

But we will lock women’s toilets to keep the men out because the men are so disgusted with having to use dirty toilets themselves. It’s something that irritates me. But at the same time, it’s not fair that we expect anybody to deal with dirty toilets.

Katherine Evans 

And how can we keep asking people to come into this industry, if we’re not going to provide them with the correct safety equipment, with welfare facilities, we’re not going to safeguard them as individuals because we aren’t accepting that there is a sexual threat towards women in the workplace, because it’s a PR issue.

Katherine Evans 

There is so many places that we aren’t looking after women. We don’t look after women, when they go off and have a baby. 84% of women will have a baby by the time they’re 40.

Katherine Evans 

And there’s another reason why we’re losing women in the leaky pipeline because we aren’t thinking about all of these points in their life that they are being affected, but just expected to come back in. Slot back in. Or you have benevolence bias when they say no, maybe because you’ve had kids now you probably gonna want to be with the kids, but they never asked the woman what she wants.

Jon Bolton 

If I may come back a few points there. So I think before, in terms of health and safety, and PPE, I would invite Katherine to come around steelworks and look at PPE and health and safety and welfare facilities. Now, things have changed massively in the time I’ve been there. And it might be different. I don’t know the mining industry well enough, so I can’t comment on that. But one of the biggest steps, and it wasn’t done for this reason, it was done for health and safety, it was driven by health and safety. It wasn’t done for inclusiveness, you know, which, you know, it’s an issue. I think that’s been addressed, addressed more now. But certainly the biggest change we’ve seen is around health and safety and welfare. You know, back in the 80s, when I started, fatalities were regular. It was common place in the industry. Now, it’s almost eliminated. And if you go around, and certainly when I do safety inspections at the time, back even in the 90s, you’d walk into welfare place and just said, this is not acceptable. You can’t improve health and safety, people’s attitude to health and safety, if they’re expecting them to work in a poor environment and with poor welfare facilities. And that just isn’t the case now. So you’ll see, far more investment has gone into welfare, far more in PPE. You know, PPE is primarily health and safety, and health and safety is the top priority in the steel industry and in the industries that I’ve worked in. There are bespoke PPE for different stages of the process. Coke ovens have a whole separate cleaning regime every day that PPE has to be changed. And because of the chemical risks associated with coke ovens. Hot metal, clearly, has to have specific PPE. Now, I totally accept that from a gender perspective, as Pam said, as well, it is not acceptable. I’m embarrassed still by walking into facilities and people are putting PPE on and we have to rush around looking at the belts and you know, it’s still not accommodating. There’s work to be done. But I think, you know, just to counter the picture, you painted a little bit around the mining sector. And I’m sure that’s not the same everywhere, but it’s clearly an issue. But certainly in steel, it’s become better. I think the other issue that I want to pick up on is around health and safety, and Katherine, you’ll be familiar with this given all your history in health and safety. I often look at the journey we’re on around EDI, and particularly gender, as something like akin to the Bradley Curve. You know, we’re talking about, I think Pam touched on it… The Bradley Curve is something that starts where you’re being very reactive. So you react to something this is bad, must do something. The next stage is when you’re being a bit more dependent. You’ve been told to do things, so there’s a whole load of instruction. And I always feels like at the moment, we’re at those very early stages around gender awareness. You know, we’re reacting. We’re not independent. People, particularly the leadership, are not promoting it. In the same way, the journey we went on health and safety, we need to be on in terms of inclusiveness, and I feel we’re just, we’re so in the early stages of that journey. As far as inclusiveness is concerned, there’s a lot more to do.

Jo Stansfield 

I love that analogy.

Jo Stansfield 

I just want to clarify, the Bradley curve is a health and safety framework about maturity for health and safety, to make sure that the listeners know what that is. And I love the analogy, actually, with diversity and inclusion being similar. But also really want to emphasize what Katherine was saying about how diversity and inclusion is health and safety. It’s about equitable health and safety for everybody. We can’t necessarily say that diversity and inclusion is this piece on the side. It’s integral to the way that that we we need to work. Pam, sorry to interrupt, I’d like to come back to you.

Jo Stansfield 

So a question for all of you before we move to our quickfire questions, do we see some hope? What has changed? What’s the next big thing that organizations need to focus on to really make that step out of the foothills? You know, onto the mountain?

Pam Murrell 

I think we are relatively in the infancy in some of these areas. I mean, I’m starting to see more young women coming in in different roles, but it’s still relatively low. And diversity generally, I think. As Jon says, we’re sort of on this journey. We’re probably in the foothills of all this, at the start. I mean, I used to go, you know… There was a classic quote, wasn’t there, that was like one size fits no one in terms of PPE, because it didn’t fit anybody. But I mean, certainly we’ve got companies now who are promoting the fact that they offer, you know, shoes and, you know, kit that’s, that’s in different sizes and things like that. I think also just to recognize that through the Transforming Foundation Industries, and TransFIRe specifically, this actually was recognized, wasn’t it? And that’s why you’re here, Jo, and the team working on this. That there is there was a recognition and acceptance that the status quo wasn’t good enough. From a self interest point of view, actually, as well, because we go back to skills and workforce, and availability of people. If we’re excluding a proportion of the population for any reason, for whatever the reason is, or just making it not as inclusive, then we’re cutting our nose off to spite our face so to speak, aren’t we? We’re just we’re just excluding people. And so I say I think we’re in the foothills, but the fact that it’s being talked about more currently, I think, you know, Katherine, hopefully, you can take some hope from that, even in the dark days.

Jon Bolton 

Well, I think it’s picks up on a lot of what’s being said, the leadership areas need to be addressed. We need progression. We need a more diverse leadership with greater awareness of what the challenges are, so they can lead the executive leadership around this area. And I think some of the work you’ve done, Jo, and around TransFIRe about developing  some playbooks around this area. What is the plan? What is guideline? And we need people to lead that. I think the second point I would raise is around skills and young people. I’m involved in something called Industrial Cadets. There are 250,000 Industrial cadets in the UK now, since we kicked it off. And it’s the point that we’ve all been talking about. If you look at the demographic of young people who are interested and come to those sessions that we have, it is at least 50% female and women involved in those sessions. You get a diverse, you get a demographic representative of the area we’re working in. Then you track that through career. So they might go on hopefully, we’ve inspired them to a career in STEM, and people will go on to do STEM. But as soon as they hit the workplace, that percentage drops off dramatically, because the workplace isn’t… We haven’t addressed those issues. It becomes an unattractive place for many parts of that demographic. And so that’s the problem. So the hope I have, there is an interest. You can get young people inspired to embark upon careers in STEM. It’s what we do in the workplace, which is what we’ve all been talking about, that why are they just falling off dramatically? Why is it a 20% is good, you know, for women in the in the workplace. You know, that’s considered best practice. That’s awful. It needs to be back up to the sort of 50, 60%. But I think we are starting, but we need to be making a lot more progress. So leadership and young people, I think.

Pam Murrell 

Yeah, I think that yeah, it’s that whole culture change, isn’t it? As you say, we’ve got some good stories that we can tell about what we do, and how we make it, and doing jobs that are useful and pay well, and things like that. But you know, it’s getting that message out. And then as you say, culture change in terms of leadership. But it’s gonna take a while, isn’t it, because we’re still, we’ve still got a male white dominated leadership in a lot of areas. And actually, the more people have conversations, the more the penny drops with people, that actually the unconscious bias gets confronted. And that takes time. Especially, and I’m not putting excuses out in a way because it’s important, but there is always something more pressing to be concerned about, if you’re running a small business. So as I say, that’s not an excuse, but it’s perhaps a reason. But that doesn’t mean that we don’t keep pushing and encouraging and having conversations. I look at the organizations that I’m involved in, when I’m scouring to find people from different backgrounds, and different genders even, to come into boards. And I just can’t… they’re not there. I’m looking … I did quite well, a few years ago, I had quite a few females, for example, on a board, but then one person passed it on to their son, who was obviously a boy. And somebody retired. And you’re back to square one again. So it isn’t easy. And there’s quite a few females in the Metals Council, interestingly, but often that’s more there on administrative type roles or executive roles rather than industrial sharp end roles. I mean, there are some. Obviously, there’s a women in metal scheme, a conference and things like that, which is, you know, bringing people together and seeing you can be it. You feel empowered, you feel supported, you can have different conversations and maybe some good ideas will come out of those that then can be cascaded out more widely. Not easy, though. But we have to keep trying.

Jo Stansfield 

Yeah, we do. Progress happening, but continuous focus needed. Katherine, how about you? What would you like to close with for our focus for making meaningful progress.

Pam Murrell 

Apart from soap in washrooms, which is obviously a priority? And hot water, please.

Katherine Evans 

As soon as people enter, career coaching. Teaching them how to network, then putting them with a mentor.

Katherine Evans 

They’re missing that part of mentoring. As soon as they come in. People aren’t taught how to network. They’re not taught how to be professional in school. You really do see it.

Katherine Evans 

When I get approached by women who are currently students in university and they just want me to do something for them. There’s no build of relationship. Can you just do that for me? It’s like, I don’t know you. So that’s a hard “No”, but they’re not being taught how to build these professional relationships, and to become a valued member of a team. That thing about working as a team, and not working against each other, where you bring people from different backgrounds, different genders, different ethnicities together in the team, and take away that bolshieness and the Alpha-ness, and trying to win over somebody else. It’s that thing of bringing a team together and the rebel ideas that fall out at the bottom of it, learning from each other.

Katherine Evans 

Then there’s the stuff about supporting women in the workplace, and their periods, and understanding that not every period is the same. Some women are absent just over the top of a toilet.

Katherine Evans 

Giving them PPE before they start, not after they’ve started, so feeling open to have these conversations about what is your body size? Please can I have that so I can do this. Not being embarrassed about talking about periods. Or you’re going out on site, take this women’s health bag that we now have, because we realize it’s needed, not just a first aid bag that’s got plasters in it, because you need a bit more than a plaster.

Katherine Evans 

Then it’s that thing of supporting women when they’re off on maternity leave. Supporting women when they come back from maternity leave. Helping people understand mental health and maintaining their mental health. And this thing, work life balance, like I don’t have a very good work life balance. Work and life has become the same thing to me, I’m always on. And that has burnt me out more than once. Because it has become such passion for me. And I feel like I can’t take my foot off the gas. Because, for me in 15 years, nothing has changed. It is just as bad now as it was when I started. I don’t see any changes at all. Perhaps 20, 25 years ago, it’s changed from that. But for me as an individual actually being in it for the last 15 years, until I started pushing this PPE thing, it wasn’t going anywhere. So that has been because I’ve just gone for it on there. Brought other women along. That’s why the PPE thing is now getting bigger and bigger. It just took me to start pushing because of my passion.

Katherine Evans 

This for women’s safety, safeguarding. People shouldn’t be going on safeguarding courses to understand the sexual threat. That’s is all around us in the workplace. And when we send women away, to go to stay at a hotel at night, I’ve had women tell me that somebody has walked into their room in the night because their keycard worked. There was a stranger in their room. Another woman who was asked, can I get a special lock to go in the back of the door? Because I’m so scared.

Katherine Evans 

There are so many things that need to be done at points inside the businesses. But I feel we’re constantly looking over, and we need to look, and things need to be included at every single level. But there’s no actual like, there’s no doing. And it’s about doing now, it’s not about saying what we should be doing. It’s actually putting money aside because it needs capital and just doing it.

Pam Murrell 

Yeah, so some really practical things. I mean, Jo, what do you think? I mean, we haven’t heard. I mean, you’ve been in the TransFIRe for obviously, the last two, three years? Turn the tables a little bit, have you seen any improvements? Have you seen? Or do you feel it’s, it’s, you know…

Jo Stansfield 

I think improvement is slow, like Katherine says. I think it’s becoming a topic that is talked about a lot more. I think it was a topic that almost no one had been talking about, actually, before TransFIRe began, certainly not across the industries, and now people are talking about it. But I also agree with Katherine that we need to actually take some action, and some of that action is very practical, very real in people’s day-to-day and in the health and safety. And that starts with leadership and investment in it, setting the cultural tone. And also the things that happen, like having a toilet that you can go to safely, that’s clean. I’ve heard people make comments that, you know, well, it’s all about the culture, isn’t it? We need to make sure we get the culture right first, but actually that is part of the culture. You know, you communicate something with what you prioritize and what you invest in.

Pam Murrell 

Yeah, I suppose I go back to the, lots of companies, SMEs. I think what Katherine says about some really practical things, like, you know, say, a welfare bag or something like that. And you think, well, that’s a really good idea. But actually, I wouldn’t necessarily thought of that. So we’ve got to communicate some hints and tips, you know, because people are quite willing, often, but they just need it pointing out to them. It might seem very obvious to Katherine and others and completely unobvious to somebody like me, who’d never, ever even thought of it. So, you know, some, some cascading of hints and tips and good practice, or best practice or something like that, that give people the tools to actually feel like they could do something positive. Because most people don’t want to be the bad guy. They want to be the good guy, don’t they?

Jo Stansfield 

They do. And I’ve been really, pleasantly, maybe surprised is a is not a great word to use in this context. But I have been pleasantly surprised actually, encouraged about actually how much people do want to do the right thing. But it’s about making sure they know what that is, and how to actually go about it.

Pam Murrell 

And pointing it out to them. And you know, the sort of penny dropping in a way or the scales dropping from the eyes? No, I hadn’t even thought of it like that, and being put in somebody else’s point of view and that empathetic approach. But as I say, I think we all need help with that. Or, you know, if you’re running a business, you need that drip, drip feeding of good ideas, don’t you?

Jo Stansfield 

You do.

Katherine Evans 

So that’s what I do now. That’s… I’m that person who goes and stands in front of your conference or as your keynote speaker, and just says, “Well, look through my lens”, or “I’ve gained all of this knowledge, because I’ve spoken to 1000 women across the industry through Bold as Brass and these are the experiences that we have”. And “here’s an imagery of it as well, because they happen to send me a photo”. And this is really happening. And I know you don’t know that it’s happening, because it’s very difficult to see something that isn’t happening to you. So unless there’s that psychological safety where women, or the person who is being treated or mistreated, they don’t feel that they can speak out for some reason or another because maybe the culture is not right. There’s no psychological safety there. They wouldn’t. It’s usually women will come back and tell me, and I’ll end up going back to their employer and saying, I’ve heard this. Perhaps this is something that you could look into. And then these are the examples that I have, like real lived examples, to be able to speak at conferences, at CPD events, to just like podcasts like this. There is more. These undercurrents of things that you don’t like. They’re happening, and they’re happening to women and women in your business.

Jo Stansfield 

Right, I’m going to move us on because we’re running very close to the end of our time. And I have to ask you the quickfire questions first. Because they’re… I must, because they’re such fun. One of my favorite parts of it. So first question is, what is your favorite thing about the foundation industries and why? And let’s start with you, Katherine.

Katherine Evans 

Excavators

Jon Bolton 

Excellent

Jo Stansfield 

Brilliant. And Jon, how about you?

Jon Bolton 

My dad, when I first started, he said, I like the industries because you’re creating value. It’s all about, to go and join an industry where you’re creating value. You’re not pushing it around, you know, like in the service sector. And then secondly, it’s just the people. I’m sure that every every sector says the same, but the people you come across worldwide in around the foundation, it’s like being part of a big community and big family. So yeah, people and the fact that you are adding value.

Pam Murrell 

Yeah, I would echo that. I think, Jo, I think it’s that the stuff we make. The fact that it goes into the real world. You could see it, at the end of the day or the end of the working week, you know, people will actually making stuff that’s useful. And the sort of problem solving elements of it, you know, there’s always a challenge. In No day is the same because we’re always trying to innovate or solve a problem to make things more effective or more efficient or more productive.

Jo Stansfield 

Brilliant. Thank you.

Katherine Evans 

I also really like ‘dozers

Jon Bolton 

I feel like I should change my answer as well. It should be electric arc furnaces.

Jo Stansfield 

Right. Next question. What foundation material would you find it the hardest to live without? And let’s do the same order. Katherine, let’s start with you again.

Katherine Evans 

Whatever metal is in forks. I don’t think I could live without a fork.

Pam Murrell 

As long as it’s not a plastic one, it’s gonna have to be stainless.

Katherine Evans 

Not a plastic one, a metal fork.

Pam Murrell 

Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think it’s got to be steel, hasn’t it?

Jon Bolton 

Absolutely, absolutely.

Pam Murrell 

It’s just everywhere. You know, I get very cross about things like single use stuff, you know, coffee cups and vapes and things like that. But, you know, if it’s in metal, we can use it again.

Jo Stansfield 

I think we have consensus on steel.

Jon Bolton 

I’m morally obliged to say steel.

Jo Stansfield 

You wouldn’t be allowed to say anything else. Okay, so final question. What material is most like your personality and why? Katherine we’ll start with you again.

Katherine Evans 

Take a guess.

Jo Stansfield 

Uh uh, your answer

Katherine Evans 

It’s brass!

Pam Murrell 

It’s going to have to be brass. Probably I could have predicted that, I was thinking it’s going to be brass, isn’t it? Bold and bright.

Jo Stansfield 

And Pam you next.

Pam Murrell 

I’m going to sound really boring but I think probably I’d have to see myself as something like cast iron. Pretty solid. But yeah, but pretty useful, hopefully.

Jo Stansfield 

And Jon, how about you?

Jon Bolton 

Well this is the most difficult question for an engineer, I feel, when you start talking about personality questions. I have thought about it. So I think well, there are certain adjectives you could use, you know for steel. So it’s gonna be steel because again, duty bound to be steel. So that can be hard, soft, it can be shiny, dull, and I was thinking well, reliable, dependable, durable. Those are things you’d like to think. But I asked my wife, I said “you’ve got to relate me to steel” and she thought about it for a while and said “recyclable?”.  I thought “What? Excuse me! That’s a touch harsh”. Oh well.

Pam Murrell 

That’s brilliant. But they’re so resilient. I think that’s that’s where I was coming from, in a way, with the with the cast iron. You know, pretty resilient and steady, really. So yeah, I think that’s fine, isn’t it? We could all live with that.

Jo Stansfield 

Well, thank you so much, Jon. Pam. Katherine, this has just been a brilliant discussion. Thank you so much for joining us.

Sue Black

Thank you for joining us for this Equity Edge episode.

Jo Stansfield

This Podcast can be found on our website www.transfire-hub.org/podcast and is also available on all good podcast channels.

Sue Black

And Please don’t forget to follow TransFIRe Hub on X and LinkedIN.  See you next time!