Diversity, Functionality and Versatility:  Paper

In this episode of The Equity Edge our industry focus is paper. Hosts Professor Sue Black OBE and Jo Stansfield are joined by guests Graham Ormondroyd, Head of Materials Research at the Biocomposites Centre and Professor of Wood Science at Bangor University, Jude Allen, Chair of the Packaging Group and EDI Lead at the Institute of Materials, Minerals and Mining, and Natanael Bolson, Research Associate at the University of Cambridge and a Researcher on the TransFIRe programme.

We learn about the manufacturing, functionality and versatility of paper and packaging. The guests focus on sustainability, skills shortage, the circular economy, and attracting and developing people with suitable skills.  They consider paper’s role in the transformation to net zero alongside building more diverse and inclusive workspaces that are further reaching than the production line, by creating awareness and sharing best practice.

Meet our guests

Episode Transcript

Episode Transcript

Sue Black

Welcome!  The Equity Edge is all about shaping tomorrow’s foundation industries, with a focus on EDI – that’s equity, diversity, and inclusion, and how it can help us achieve a sustainable and fairer future.

I’m Professor Sue Black. I’m Professor of computer science and technology evangelist at Durham University, leading pioneering initiatives like our award winning TechUPWomen programme championing diversity in STEM

Jo Stansfield

And I’m Jo Stansfield. I’m an engineer-turned-business-psychologist specialising in equity, diversity and inclusion in engineering fields. Welcome to The Equity Edge podcast.

Sue Black

Together we are working with TransFIRe, a programme investigating how the foundation industries can develop innovative solutions to reduce waste and energy use, and to accelerate the development of clean technologies.

Jo Stansfield

These are the industries that make 75% of the materials we see around us, and are fundamental to modern society – they are: cement, metals, ceramics, glass, paper and chemicals.

 

Sue Black 

Hi everyone. In this episode of the equity edge, we will focus on the paper industry, the circular economy and attracting and developing people with appropriate skills. We’re going to be talking with experts from industry and academia to learn more about paper, and consider papers role in the transformation to net zero alongside building more diverse and inclusive workspaces. Who are we joined by today, Jo?

Jo Stansfield 

Today we’re joined by Graham Ormondroyd, Head of Materials Research at the Biocomposites Center and Professor of Wood Science at Bangor University. Welcome, Graham.

Graham Ormondroyd 

Hi there. It’s nice to be here.

Jo Stansfield 

And we have Jude Allen. She is chair of the packaging group and EDI lead at the Institute of Materials, Minerals and Mining. Welcome to the show Jude.

Jude Allen 

Thank you very much. It’s great to be here.

Jo Stansfield 

And finally, we have an Natanael Bolson. He is a research associate at the University of Cambridge and a researcher on the TransFIRe program. Welcome to Natanael.

Natanael Bolson 

Hello, glad to be here.

Sue Black 

Thanks, everyone. So, Graham, we’ll start with you. Paper as the material is something we’re all familiar with. But how much do we actually know about it? Could you as an expert, tell us a bit about how paper is made? And maybe some things that might surprise us about the paper industry?

Graham Ormondroyd 

Okay, yeah, sure. So fundamentally, paper’s made by taking a material that’s fibrous, breaking it down, and then reforming it into a sheet material that can be used for many applications. Fundamentally, we can do that in our kitchens if we wanted. But the paper industry is a massive industry. And the technology and the science that goes into making the paper that we use day to day is actually massive. The science that goes in, for instance, into making tissue paper or your kitchen roll, and the ability for that to stay together, even when it’s wet, is immense. And that’s evolving all the time. But as I mentioned, the paper industry is massive, even here in the UK, it’s a 12 billion pounds per year industry. And it employs over 62,000 people directly in the industry. And then in the conversion industry. And I’m sure as doodle talk about in the in the packaging industry, there’s another 100,000 people that indirectly employed purely because of paper.

Sue Black 

Wow, that’s amazing. And lots of things already that I didn’t know in there. So thank you for that. And so can you give us a bit more details about one of those products like tissue paper, and just tell us a bit about so what is the science involved in that?

Graham Ormondroyd 

The science comes from being able to break down the wood pulp as it usually is today, although it doesn’t have to be wood. Cotton has been used in paper making, especially for very strong paper. But there’s a science of breaking it down. And there’s two ways to break down: One is chemically, and the other is actually by just grinding that that wood down to give you the fiber. Once you’ve got that fiber, it goes into what’s called a pulp. And that pulp can be 5% wood fiber, but then nearly 95% water. And that allows it to flow around the factory and be able to form these thin sheets that we need. But into that pool pulp also goes additives. And so those additives can be sizing agents if you’re making a very smooth paper, or it can be wet strength agents. So sometimes, I hate to say this, but it could be a polymer. It could be other types of agents that make the paper fibers hold together when they get wet.

Sue Black 

Right. And can you just tell us what a polymer is? So sorry, I don’t know that.

Graham Ormondroyd 

It’s like a plastic or rubber type product.

Sue Black 

Right. Okay. Thank you. That’s really great. Thanks, Graham. And you just given me, I’ve kind of brought back memories of papier mâché at primary school, which is about the closest I’ve got to doing that. Thank you. That’s really interesting. Thanks, Graham. So Jude over to you, you’ve spent your whole career working in manufacturing, and you’re now chair of the packaging group at IOM3 the Institute of Materials, Minerals, and Mining. Can you tell us about some of the ways that paper is used in packaging?

Jude Allen 

Yes, I certainly can’t thank you very much. It’s used all over the place. And we deal with it every single day. And when we buy things in the supermarket, when we, kind of like look for, you know, look for those kind of like luxury things that we’re that we’re purchasing. Packaging that’s made from paper and card can be so brilliantly functional, and clever and smart. And it’s so versatile. And that’s the thing that I absolutely love about it. So from your cereal boxes, and your baked bean wrappers, or paper labels that go around the tins, to the boxes that go in the freezer with fish fingers in. So you know all of those have to have the right properties to work in those different environments. So your kitchen cupboard is a very different environment, your freezer drawer. And making sure that they’re kind of like the paper and the card have got the right properties for that. But also, you want to know what that packaging is holding. You want to be able to have a good understanding of what’s in it, and to be able to read the instructions for how to cook your fish fingers after it’s been kind of like scrambled around in the in the freezer for goodness knows how long. And all of those things are really important things about the way that paper and card work. But it’s also there’s so much more than that. So you have the ability to emboss card. It’s really important and is used a lot and in trying to create a luxury feel. But it also is used really functionally on pharmaceutical packaging where there is Braille embossed for some of the instructions that are that are needed. And so it’s just the functionality of it is so brilliant, and it’s so easily and well manipulated to deliver those things. And all the way through to, as I say, luxury cosmetics and gift packaging. And you know, like we’re seeing so much now where people are trying to take the plastic out of the packaging. So your iPhone, which used to have a kind of like a plastic lining in the packaging is now all designed out of out of paper and card. And it looks beautiful. And you know, that whole unboxing process, which is like super, super important for people is kind of like you’re seeing that as a kind of like a beautiful card presentation. So it’s really effective. And it’s got a great surface printing. It’s surprisingly technical, and yet looks beautifully simple. And that’s what I absolutely love about it.

Sue Black 

That’s wonderful. Thanks, Jude. And so thinking about them fish finger boxes, which I don’t think about that often. What sort of things do you have to consider when you’re coming up with packaging for fish fingers?

Jude Allen 

Well, so there’s a couple of things. Firstly, you have to make sure that whatever card is used, is able to resist the fat that’s in the in the fish fingers. So you kind of like it doesn’t create spots on the packaging. And that means that you’ve got an inner layer to prep this surface. But also you’ve got to have a wet strength to the cardboard, that means that it doesn’t just disintegrate in the freezer environment. Because if you think about it, going back to your paper mâché thought, kind of like paper, if you put it in water and a wet environment, it will go soggy. And a freezer is potentially quite a damp environment. So we need to make sure that actually there’s enough additives that help to kind of like give the wet strain that cardboard doesn’t fall apart. So it’s that functionality. And then there’s actually things like how you work with the structure to fold it up, and make sure that you’ve got that you don’t end up spilling fish fingers all over the bottom of freezer, which does also happen. But they are designed in order to kind of like help create a way to close the box. So it’s kind of like how the carton board material itself is designed. But then how the structure is designed to kind of like enhance the functionality.

Jo Stansfield 

So let’s move on. And Natanael, I’d like to come to you because you’ve been doing some amazing research with TransFIRe to identify some cutting edge solutions to sustainable development challenges that the foundation industries are facing. Can you tell us a bit about your approach and some of the things that you’ve discovered?

Natanael Bolson 

So our approach that we’re deploying here to really tackle this sustainability challenge is really relying on more than a decade of expertise of our group that I joined here in Cambridge. So we can really speed up because have a lot of expertise inside. So what we are really trying to identify is to build the resource map of the foundational industries in the UK. So with this resource map, identify all the materials and energies that different industries are consuming, how we are converting these materials in the final products that we use, and also how much energy we are using for that. So we are really going to like a very basic level to identify all these materials and energy consumers to be able to measure all the key metrics, for example, like carbon footprint, energy footprint, material yield. And as you go through all the six foundation industries that we are mapping at TransFIRe, we start to build an overall picture of the UK. And then you start to see like, okay, which industry is leading, which one is lagging behind? Then through that we are making this assessment of these cross sectoral insights to see, okay, what are the key measures that we need to take to bring the UK closer to net zero targets that we are pursuing? So is a quite interesting exercise because you’ll see like, it’s certainly different as you approach at industry to get more data to see the metrics, to evaluate the metrics and also, even this maybe sounds simple. We face a lot of challenges like when they start to check because once you get the materials, you get the metrics, you need to compare it because you select a random number. You don’t know. Are we performing to the best that we can or it’s bad performance? And you start to face some challenges. Many like when start to think in perspective of a sector, because the metal sectors in the UK doesn’t reflect the metal sectors in another country, like the shares of materials produced. So even have to go to a level of granularity that we know what we are manufacturing in the UK, to be able to get these metrics from different places. And also not only to have just isolated one single material, but how the sector overall impacts the UK. So having very interesting and challenging exercise, and some of the scholars that you get, like, you’ll see that the UK is leading in several aspects. As you can see that mostly, when you start to think about sustainability, the 101, the easy to implement measures, they are in place in the UK. So like it’s broadly adopted. So when you compare to some target levels, you already decarbonize significantly. And so, also it brings the challenge, because once we implemented these easy steps, you okay, what is next? And that’s become the harder to implement measures. And this is like what you’re really focusing now. Okay, we are leading in several aspects, how do we go beyond? And that’s kind of like challenging as we start to be a pioneer on that levels of decarbonisation. And one of the curious things that we see here in the UK is like, we have like a relatively low carbon energy mix. And then when you just look into carbon footprint, that’s the main metric, we are performing reasonably well. But when you start to look, for example, in energy efficiency, we have not performed that well. And then there’s some hidden aspects that as you start to map out these resources, you’re receiving sight and then you start to ask question, okay, how we improve this, how we prove the other part? So is very interesting, challenging exercise.

Jo Stansfield 

Yeah. It sounds like an amazing interconnectivity potentially, between all of the different industries in the UK. And I imagine that there’s huge challenges actually, in collecting that detail of the data. How do you go about finding all of the data that you need for this process, Natanael?

Natanael Bolson 

So that’s the interesting part. Because a lot of data we can get, like government, like different agencies and statistical organizations and also from the federations. But sometimes you need more level of detail. And then you need to reach out to industries. And sometimes they are keen to collaborate, sometimes they’re a little reluctant to share this data, because also the status has some commercial implications, once you, you started to expose that. So it’s kind of like a dedicated topic to try to gather as much as you can. Also, you rely on literature. But sometimes the literature is outdated, like what is in the literature does not really represent what’s being deployed in the factories. So, you always need to, okay, I got these numbers, how you validated that. So one of the good things of being part of TransFIRe is that you have the technical working groups that have experts in the specific sectors, so it’s always my initial validation point. And even through that we get journals to contact the industry. So like you got academic validation, and also an industrial discussion to see how these numbers they hold and what they really represent. But this needs a lot of technical and social engineering to be able to gather all of this information, because different numbers, even reported by the government, they are sometimes at the level of detail that’s not useful for what you are looking for. And sometimes you need to go in much more detail. And as you start going to detail, it’s become harder to find these numbers published and readily available. And sometimes also, you need to define a lot of difference, because you have two numbers being reported in separated parts. And knowing that two numbers you can get the one that you that you want. Also requires some creativity, how you can find and collect data that is not publicly available, or sometimes even not the industry’s measuring that. So that’s part of the challenge and the fun.

Jo Stansfield 

Wow, it sounds like a huge task and a very valuable one to be able to do all of that mapping together. So coming back to paper again, Graham, I’m sure many people will think of paper as a fairly sustainable material. You know, we have lots of recycled paper around us and, you know, trees can be grown back again. But like the other foundation industries, we’re aware that there is a carbon footprint that it does need to reduce. What are the biggest environmental challenges facing the paper industry and how can they be addressed?

Graham Ormondroyd 

The first thing says paper is sustainable, but it’s not circular. So we can take paper fiber and from the highest quality paper. Maybe it’s a high quality packaging, or it’s printed paper, which is actually high quality. And we can take that fiber and we can use that again. But every time we use that fiber, it becomes brittle, it breaks, it becomes smaller. And so after about the fifth, sixth or seventh time, it becomes pretty useless and you can’t use it again. So that single fiber has a finite life. And eventually, it’ll go down from being high quality packaging or paper down through newsprint and eventually end up as a tissue, which we all know where tissues go. It is sustainable, but as I say, it’s not circular. And yes, we can regrow trees. But certainly here in the UK, we’re wanting to build 300,000 homes, from trees, from wood, from timber, and move to a timber based construction economy. So there’s a lot of pressure on those trees as well. And we certainly don’t have enough in the UK. There is a planting scheme and there’s moves and policy to plant more trees, but they take time to grow. But even in just paper and paper manufacturing, as I said earlier, when you make a pulp it’s 95% water. Paper is probably about 3% water, so you have to get rid of all that water out  of that pulp. Now through the factories, and through a lot of innovation that’s happened, of course, a lot of that water is got rid of through squeezing through nip rollers, and being able to squeeze that water out, but you still need heat. And where that heat comes from it is it is a major concern. And certainly with rising gas prices and oil prices, fuel prices, in general, actually getting that heat, that sent some paper factories under and they’re not functioning anymore, because purely the price of fuel and the price of creating that heat. So one of the things that we’re thinking about in the TransFIRe project is whether we can harness heat from other industries, which is a waste, and use that within the paper industry and co-locate new paper mills and new paper factories with some of these industries that have a massive amount of excess heat.

Sue Black 

Is that actually happening? You know, are we managing to do that at all?

Graham Ormondroyd 

No, not yet. It’s theoretical, but there is always a potential.  That will come with the development of new factories within the UK. One of the other sustainability issues we have in the UK is we don’t produce our own pulp. And pulp is brought from elsewhere, whether it be Canada, Scandinavia. So there’s a transport implication there. And the reason we don’t produce our own pulp, as I’ve already said, is there’s an immense pressure on the forest industries. And although the work the forest industries in the UK is about 70% sitka spruce, which was originally planted to produce paper, is now being repurposed to other things with a greater value. But going back to the water issue, of course, the water needs to be cleaner as it comes out of the factories than when it went in. So there’s always a pollution issue there and potential for a pollution issue. And certainly around biological oxygen demand within water with there’ve been microbes in the pulp, and with cellulose, perhaps in the water, that can become an issue if it’s not properly controlled in the factories. Now, what is nice to say here in the UK, is that our mills are very, very good at cleaning their water. And it isn’t an issue unless there becomes an emergency. And they’re really the main environmental issues around pulp and paper making. But essentially, it’s really energy and supply of raw material. My final point about sustainability and paper is as the uses of paper become more complex, as Jude’s talked about, and I touched on, the additives that are used in the paper and the coatings that are used become more and more complex. And these sometimes interfere with the recycling system. So there’s a project going within the UK at the moment to make put pulp moulded bottles. But these are thought for great products from shampoo to whiskey. But these have to be coated quite considerably, to be able to hold the liquids in for the required amount of time. Now there’s real issue to repulp those and we regain the fiber from them. So we always need to be very, very cognizant of when we’re coating these products of how we can recycle them and get that fiber out for the next five lifecycles.

Jo Stansfield 

That’s an excellent answer. I learned a lot. Thank you Graham.

Jude Allen 

Where did tissue paper go?

Sue Black 

(laughs) We can leave that to listeners to work out for themselves. But I just find it so interesting that, you know, we just buy a box of tissues or buy some printer paper. We have absolutely no clue if we’re not involved in the industry, what amount of science and thought and all sorts of considerations have gone into us being able to receive that. We’ve just got used to just going and buying it and putting it in the printer for example. So I just find it utterly incredible that so much work goes into that.  Carrying on from that then, Jude, talking a bit about the paper industry and working in the paper industry, I think like much of the manufacturing sector, Pulp and Paper industries have got a skills shortage. And then surely that’s going to make it harder to address some of the big issues that we’ve just been talking about. Can you say what’s causing that? And how can the paper industry attract new talent?

Jude Allen 

So I think your point, Sue, is really key, that you just don’t think about it, and you don’t think about it until you’re in it. And then when you’re in it, you go, wow, this is amazing, actually. It’s really interesting. It’s really complex. It’s really challenging. It’s brilliant. And I would say, I think that about packaging industry, for instance, nobody in a careers interview at school has ever sat there and gone “Yeah, packaging, that’s what I’m going to work in”. It just doesn’t occur to people and it’s not on the radar. But then people find themselves in that industry, and they love it. And it’s brilliant. And it’s like, one of the things that I think is really important for us. And I think this applies all the way down the chain. I mean, I see packaging as the kind of like the first user of a lot of the foundation industry materials. So it’s a chain, really. But the first thing is just awareness. People don’t think about it, they don’t know about it, they’re not aware of it as a career, they don’t really understand necessarily, that there is the potential for really interesting, challenging, brilliantly rewarding careers within these areas. And so there’s a bit of a PR job of just getting out there and helping people to see it and think about it and understand. The second thing is making those roles attractive, so that then when people do go, “oh, maybe that’s something that would be interesting to work in”, then it sounds attractive, and you’re able to really make it a rewarding career for people. Because you need to make it attractive in order to appeal to them to get them in. And then you need to make sure that you’ve got the right way of dealing with people’s career and thinking about their development to retain them. So it’s all a journey that we’re all on. But I think we do need to make these things feel more inspiring and attractive to people. And the temptation is, and we like we see it in packaging a lot. Packaging can be, you know, the real bad guy, because people don’t think about what it’s done to get the product to you. They just think about once they’ve got it in their hand. “What do I do with this now?” It’s sort of the same with all of the foundation industries, people don’t think about them. So how do we bring that to people’s attention? How do we help to get that into schools, so that it’s on people’s agendas for careers. And the more we can do that, that’d be better.

Sue Black 

It does seem a bit crazy, because there’s, like Graham was saying, so many people work in the industry. And we now know that just 1000s, millions, of people work in the foundation industries. But most of us don’t hear about it at school, don’t see much on regular TV. It’s just kind of invisible, really which seems crazy. So it’ll be interesting actually, to chat to you Natanael. Because you’ve worked across continents, you’ve worked in Brazil and Saudi Arabia, and you’re now here in the UK. Have you learned anything from your experience in different countries and cultures that could benefit the industry here in any way?

Natanael Bolson 

I think this is quite a tricky question. Because the countries that I have been, they’re quite different from each other, they have very distinct profiles. And you’ll see that are completely different challenges faced in each one of them. So you’ll see the challenges that are facing the UK, some of them I didn’t observe in Brazil or back in Saudi Arabia, and also because the thought is to solve different challenges that they are more pressuring.  It’s quite a different focus that I observed in other countries like for example Saudi Arabia, you see, there’s a lot of economic diversification to go beyond the oil. So they are trying to create a new industries. So it’s kind of like an expanding moment. So you’ll see that there is a lot of opportunities going on. While in Brazil I was not so connected to the industrial part, I was more connected to the agro industry sector. So you can see a lot of innovation going on there.  Like even from the value to the machinery, and how like all this technology is being deployed on the farms. And I feel like when I think the foundational industries are much more well versed in the UK because of the requirements of my position and all the work that we have deployed. But at the same time, I see some things from the UK that that I would like to bring to the other countries. What I observe here when you interact with different people from different sectors, I feel like the industry is much more aware about the sustainability issues. Like you’ll see that they are more worried with how are we going to reach Net Zero targets? How do we implement what is available for us? One of the things that sometimes I didn’t have a conflict is because usually they just think about sustainability as in terms of energy. So I thought if you get cheaper energy, we solve a lot of our issues. If you become more energy efficient, we solve a lot of issues. And while the answers, it’s not that simple, you need to think like in resource efficiency. We also need to include all the materials, like how we can increase material yield, how we can increase the circularity that some sectors are lagging behind on that aspect. And that also, in some cases, can be as efficient as improvements in energy efficiency, or even better, because you will increase material efficiency will also increase energy efficiency together. So it’s hand on hand. And this knowledge, you don’t see this spread across the industry, not in all the sectors. And now so one thing that I liked was the maturity of industry here in several sectors, and also the background that we have, like in academia, on these topics. So I feel like we just need to make a better connection, like the transfer of all this knowledge having academia and implemented activity in industry. And I think this is some of the things that if I could I would carry out to the other counties where I have been.  In this sense, we are leading on that. So it’s quite isolated, like more mature in terms of industry. So it’s a different challenge than what you see like in terms of when they’re establishing an industrial sector, or like we’re starting from scratch from the beginning. These are kinds of different issues that you face.

Jo Stansfield 

And Natanael, I’m curious about any cultural differences as well. The differences in the way that people work together, or the way that they come together to solve some of the challenges?

Natanael Bolson 

Well, when they were asked in Brazil, that not much cultural diversity of the likely tomorrow from Brazil. So we see like a very similar approach to solve things. But one of the things that they have said, like When I was in Saudi I was in a very international environment, with people from all around, the most diverse backgrounds, and walks of life. So it’s quite interesting, because you have very different perspectives on how you could tackle one issue. And that needs a lot  alignment and management. So you’ll see, something like an energy issue a different way, because you grow up with a different background. So sometimes, in your country, you have much more renewable energy. So you think on energy systems in a completely different way, then you move to Saudi like, it’s kind of all is almost 100% oil, and they have like a completely different perception on that. And as you start to see, it’s kind of an initial shock. And once you align this perception, you can come with very incredible outcomes, because crucially, they’re looking to the problem in a completely different angle that you are used to, and sometimes you will not even consider that perspective. So  what I really liked, having these different backgrounds, in this cultural diversity is you have like a quite unique angle to look into the problem. And also something that also you’ll see like here in the UK that have like, a lot of diversity, at least on the academia and the environment that I have been working in. And each one brings the unique background, those others are also experts, and that you can have a different perception of the problem. And then see, okay, maybe this we could deploy in a different way. So I feel like it’s enriched the way that you can  address and overcome, because it’s much more diverse, the way that you look. Sometimes I’d like to do the conditions that you are exposed to. Like that is where we are coming from or where you have worked is quite unique.  Diversity is an advantage that you provide to others that you can share.  And I think this is like the beauty. I just want to make a final remark when I refer to the diversity in Brazil, I refer to the international diversity that in that case I was used to work with Brazilians, not international diversity, but we are like a very good really diverse country. So you can see for the most different persons with different perceptions, working in the same.  But at the same time that diversity is brewed in the same environment, so in some cases, we have the same perceptions about the issues with slightly different angles. So we are quite a diverse country.

Jo Stansfield 

I think that’s such an important point, you know, all of those different backgrounds and bringing in perspectives with different understanding and experience is one of our key issues when we’re thinking about diversity and inclusion, and how do we actually best bring together those perspectives and include all of those different views, when we’re thinking about how work is done. So a question to everybody. What can we do more in the paper industry to be promoting diversity and inclusion more? And do you see parallels with the transformation for decarbonisation, and reduced energy consumption? Jude, let’s go to you first.

Jude Allen 

So one of the things that IOM3 is all about, so IOM3 is about the people working in the in the industry. And what I would say, the start point is awareness. And the start point is just thinking about the fact that you might need to open your eyes to a different area than you’ve been focused on on already. And that applies to your workforce and diversity, it applies to decarbonisation, it applies to so many different things. But in order to try and help people to do that, we’re about trying to share best practice and experiences, because sometimes you just need somebody else to go, “yeah, we’ve been seeing this”, “oh, we’ve been thinking about that”, or actually have you… And that’s really important, because some of the things around EDI are, you know, in some ways, they should be obvious. But they’re only obvious if you think about them. And it’s not that people don’t want to think about them, it’s just that it doesn’t occur to them sometimes. So they’re some of the things that we need to make sure that people are aware and thinking about and finding a way to share within our networks. So that people are looking at things slightly outside of what they do day to day. So when you’re in the middle of like trying to recruit to fill a role, then sometimes you just go down the same route that you always have. But it might be that the best thing to do actually, is to just open that network out to a slightly more diverse, and not interview people on a basis of, “Oh, I understand you because we we look and feel the same”, and therefore you can’t find it. And all of that, that’s so natural, but we need to change that. And it’s kind of like stepwise trying to help people to understand that and trying to help people to see the unconscious bias that they have. All of those things are very important. And I think it’s a, you know, it’s a bringing things up to the surface and normalizing it, and how can we do that to help people to just really look at things in a different way.

Jo Stansfield 

Very true, you know, that different perspective is what we need to be bringing in. Graham, do you have any thoughts that you’d like to share about this?

Graham Ormondroyd 

I think it’s not just with the paper industry, but with all of the foundation industries, it’s just changing the image of what the jobs are, and that they’re not just necessarily heavy industry, and that there’s lots of very fulfilling different jobs within these sectors. I think that once we open their eyes to how these sectors now work and the technologies that are there, that will become more fascinating for more people.

Sue Black 

Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s right, isn’t it? And, you know, I think what’s coming over really is that we need stuff in schools, we need stuff on TV, we need stuff everywhere about the industries, because, again, there’s so many people working in the industry, but no one seems to really know about it until they almost fall across it or have someone that they know that works in the industry, which is completely crazy. Right, so, well, thanks for the amazing discussion that we’ve had today. It’s been really enlightening, as always.  We’ve found out things about fish fingers or fish finger boxes that I didn’t. So that’s great. So we’ve got our quickfire questions now. So first question. What’s your favorite thing about the foundation industries and why? And we’re going to Graham first.

Graham Ormondroyd 

Oh the size, the size of industries for me, I spent my life from boy through to through to where I am now working on a bench. And yes, working with industry, but we did the bench scale. Foundation industries are massive you know, we’ve talked about the size of paper industry, which is probably the smallest of all the foundation industries. But just the sheer size of when you go to a factory and see, you know. We talked about tissue paper, but that box of tissues has come from a two ton roll of tissue, and that’s made within five minutes. So looking at the size and breadth of these industries is fascinating for me.

Sue Black 

That’s incredible and I learned something else! Jude, how about you?

Jude Allen 

So I love the foundations in that they are the key start point for everything. I think that’s just brilliant. But what I particularly love is the people who work in it. Their knowledge, their passion, their enthusiasm, because that’s what you get. But you get them – and then most of them haven’t known about the industry before they find themselves in it. What I’d love is to get people to just talk about that a bit more and fly the flag for it. But yeah, the people, the people who work there.

Sue Black 

Great, thank you. Nathanael?

Natanael Bolson 

I think what fascinates me most of the foundation industry is that it’s the backbone of our modern society. And usually, we assume them as base materials. And while it’s kind of the opposite, that is such a complexity, such a lot of technologies and advancements being deployed. But how we see these materials everywhere, we don’t perceive that we kind of take it for granted. And  all the developments that is there and all the challenges and opportunities that also are within this sector. So I think this is what fascinates me.

Sue Black 

That’s great. Thank you. Yeah, we absolutely do take them for granted, I think. So next question. Which foundational material would you find it hardest to live without? And I’ll do the same order I think. Graham.

Graham Ormondroyd 

It has to be paper… pulp and paper. Because we’re seeing more and more today and going into the future, what we’re seeing coming through research is the paper and pulp and pulp moulding, which is which is a technology to mould a shape out of the paper pulp, taking over a lot of the other materials such as metals, and glass, and let’s face it, we can’t do without tissue.

Sue Black 

Are you obsessed with tissue Graham? Thank you. Jude.

Jude Allen 

So this is really hard for me, because I love all materials. I’m so materials agnostic, because I love them all. So I think they all have amazing properties. They all do brilliant things. And I think as I say the foundation industries are just the real building blocks that we built all of our society on. But if I had to choose, I’d go ceramics, because I couldn’t do without my cup of tea.

Sue Black 

Yeah, I’m with you on that one. Absolutely. Good point. Natanael.

Natanael Bolson 

I think for me, I feel like the most fundamental piece is the metals. Specifically like when you get like steel, because it’s such a versatile material that we use for everything: our infrastructure, to build bridges, to medical devices. So that’s what fascinates me. I think that’s the most fundamental part.

Sue Black 

That’s great. Thank you. And so last question. Which material is most like your personality and why? I think we’ll do  reverse order this time. So to you, Natanael.

Natanael Bolson 

I think we’ll go with steel again, because it’s a  resilient and strong material. And also there is the part of tempering steel that is I feel like really fits with the part to overcome challenges. You need to always be adjusting yourself to face all the temperaments.

Sue Black 

That’s great. Thank you, Natanael.  Jude.

Jude Allen 

Right, I’m gonna go for paper, to be totally on message with today, because it’s simple, yet complex. And I like that. It’s super flexible. It can be used for so many different ways. And it can bring a smile to your day, from a message in a card to crossing something off on a to do list. There are so many things about paper that can just be positive.

Sue Black 

Oh, that’s fantastic. Thank you. And lastly, Graham.

Graham Ormondroyd 

I think the plastic PT, because sometimes I can be hard and rigid, but usually, I’m flexible and malleable and open to being able to be manipulated.

Sue Black 

Well, that’s an interesting place to end up. It’s not what I was expecting. But that’s great. Wonderful. Well, Natanael, Jude, Graham, thank you so much for joining us on our podcast today. It’s been wonderful.

Graham Ormondroyd 

Thank you.

Jude Allen 

Thank you so much for having us.

—

Sue Black

Thank you for joining us for this Equity Edge episode.

Jo Stansfield

This Podcast can be found on our website www.transfire-hub.org/podcast and is also available on all good podcast channels.

Sue Black

And Please don’t forget to follow TransFIRe Hub on X and LinkedIN.  See you next time!