Routes-in and the Roadmap for Change within Ceramics

In this episode of #TheEquityEdge our industry focus is ceramics. Hosts Professor Sue Black OBE and Jo Stansfield are joined by guests Abigail Bell, Aerospace Engineer and Innovation Executive for the Northeast Process Industries Cluster, Katy Moss, CEO for Trent Refractories, Colin Church, Chief Executive of the Institute of Materials, Minerals and Mining (IOM3) and Silvia Grimaldi, Reader in Service Design and collaborative futures, and Co-Founder of the Service Futures Lab at the University of the Arts, London.

We discover that there is more to ceramics than teapots and toilets, and learn about the process of manufacturing ceramics, while considering the environmental and social impact of manufacturing.  The guests share their personal experiences and journeys into engineering, their routes into the industry; including the barriers, challenges and lessons learned. They discuss nurturing early interest in engineering, the opportunities to enter into the industry, and existing professional support.  They consider how the culture can be shifted, through co-design  and integrated leadership approaches, to create more welcoming, inclusive environments within engineering.

Meet our guests

Episode Transcript

Episode Transcript

Sue Black

Welcome!  The Equity Edge is all about shaping tomorrow’s foundation industries, with a focus on EDI – that’s equity, diversity, and inclusion, and how it can help us achieve a sustainable and fairer future.

I’m Professor Sue Black. I’m Professor of computer science and technology evangelist at Durham University, leading pioneering initiatives like our award winning TechUPWomen programme championing diversity in STEM

Jo Stansfield

And I’m Jo Stansfield. I’m an engineer-turned-business-psychologist specialising in equity, diversity and inclusion in engineering fields. Welcome to The Equity Edge podcast.

Sue Black

Together we are working with TransFIRe, a programme investigating how the foundation industries can develop innovative solutions to reduce waste and energy use, and to accelerate the development of clean technologies.

Jo Stansfield

These are the industries that make 75% of the materials we see around us, and are fundamental to modern society – they are: cement, metals, ceramics, glass, paper and chemicals.

 

Sue Black 

Hi everybody. In this Equity Edge episode we’re talking about ceramics and career paths. When you think about ceramics, what do you picture? Is it plates and vases, bathtubs, or bricks? Or how about semiconductors and spaceship nose cones? Today we’ll be hearing from ceramics industry and materials experts and exploring how the industry can develop inclusive career paths for everyone. Who’s joining us for this episode, Jo.

Jo Stansfield 

Thanks. Sue.  Today we’re joined by Katy Moss, who’s CEO for Trent Refractories and flying the flag for British manufacturing. Welcome, Katy.

Katy Moss 

Thank you very much for having me. Pleasure to be here.

Jo Stansfield 

And we have Abigail Bell, who’s an aerospace engineer and innovation executive for the Northeast Process Industries Cluster, also known as an NEPIC. Welcome to the show, Abi.

Abigail Bell 

Thank you, Jo. Great to be here today.

Jo Stansfield 

And we have Colin Church who is Chief Executive of the Institute of Materials, Minerals and Mining, or IOM3, the global network for the materials cycle, and he’s a champion for equity, diversity and inclusion. Welcome, Colin.

Colin Church 

Hello. Thanks for having me along.

Jo Stansfield 

And finally, we welcome Silvia Grimaldi, a Reader in Service Design and collaborative futures, and co founder of the Service Futures Lab at the University of the Arts, London. Sylvia, welcome to the show.

Silvia Grimaldi 

Thank you, Jo. And thank you for having me.

Sue Black 

Thanks, Jo. So Katy, we’ll start with you. Ceramics is so much more than most people might be aware of. Your business is an example of that. I only learned about refactories when we started working with the foundation industries on the TransFIRe project. Can you tell us a bit about ceramics and some of these important uses of ceramics that people might not have ever heard about?

Katy Moss 

Sure. Well, ceramics are everywhere. And they’re vital for our day to day lives as we live them today. Particularly, you know, not just when you think about ceramics, it’s not just tea cups and toilets. It’s so much more than than that. So they’re non-metallic materials, formed and generally then solidified by a heat process. Refractories themselves, which is part of the ceramic industry, is a substance generally that is resistant to heat. And actually, there’s been a word for it since Latin times. So it’s something that actually has been in general use since the dawn of civilization, if you like. So yeah, very important. refractory linings, things that we make, generally stop things from, from melting in processes. So it underpins the foundation industries as a whole.

Sue Black 

So can you tell us a bit more about what that actually is? Like I said before, when I got involved with the foundation industries I didn’t know anything. I’ve never heard the word refactories before, at all. So I didn’t know what it was at all. So maybe just a bit about the process, the sort of materials and what the end products can be.

Katy Moss 

They come in many forms, but the biggest use of them is generally in the steelmaking process. So when you think about melting steel, they generally melt that in a big metal pot. Well, if there wasn’t some kind of lining, within that process, then metal would melt metal. So we form this sort of protective layer. And that can come in brick form, or the can be precast shapes, or actually, essentially like concrete that goes to very high temperatures. And in any process, steel, obviously being the one that’s the biggest user, but any process that sees heat requires a refractory. So everything that we look at in our day to day lives, glass, wood, anything that we burn, all those processes see heat and require refractories within them. So particularly incineration is becoming quite big now and waste to energy. So that’s a growth area for us.

Sue Black 

Okay, great. Thank you. So Colin, over to you. Ceramics manufacture, like all foundation industries, is very energy intensive, like Katy’s just been saying there.  Can you tell us a bit about some of the environmental challenges and how they can be addressed?

Colin Church 

Yeah, so the energy intensive thing is a really big part of the environmental challenge that ceramics industries face. If you’re having to make your material at high temperatures, so that it is, as Katy was saying earlier, then gonna resist high temperatures, it requires a lot of energy. You need to burn gas or other fuels or have very high heat from electricity. And of course, if we burn gas, there’s the carbon dioxide emissions. That’s a problem. You also have issues around the waste materials sometimes. And you have issues around the environmental damage that can be done for extracting the raw materials. So, clay and other materials that you dig out of the ground, if you don’t do that in the right way it can be a problem. So there’s a bunch of the environmental challenges that face the ceramics like the other foundation industries, for sure.

Sue Black 

And what can we do about that?

Colin Church 

So I think there are different things that need to be done at different parts of that process, if you like. So starting at the beginning, when you’re actually extracting the raw materials, you need to make sure that you’re doing that in as sensitive a way that you can, whether it’s managing the environmental impact, or the social impacts of the place that you’re doing it, managing the impact of transport when you take the stuff from the hole in the ground to the place, you’re going to use it. Then when it comes to managing the process on site itself, we need to be as efficient as we can be in the materials that we use. So don’t use more materials than you need, creating more waste and creating more extraction. Decarbonizing the energy. So removing the fossil fuel element is a really big thing as well. And there’s quite a lot of hope, around the potential for using hydrogen as a fuel rather than natural gas. Of course, when you burn hydrogen, all you get as a waste product is water so that is not such a bad thing. The issue at the moment, well, two issues, the first one is creating the hydrogen in the first place can be a problem, and can be quite difficult. And then the second one is, we now understand how to use natural gas to heat ceramics up, to fire ceramics, to make ceramics. And we’re still in the learning process for applying hydrogen in that space. And then more generally, I think, when we produce that stuff, making sure that it’s used properly, and looked after properly, it might be amusing if you’re in a certain restaurant to throw place plates on the ground. But that’s just a waste of all of the energy and materials that went into it, however much fun it might be on the moment. So being concerned about the resource efficiency, the how much stuff you use to make what you need is an important part of it as we go through as well. Yeah, that’s great. Thank you, Colin. Abi, let’s move to you now. So today, we’re also going to be talking about career paths. And you recently graduated with a BAEng in aerospace engineering. And you’re now working at NEPIC as an innovation executive. Would you tell us a little bit about your work and your path to get here? Were there any barriers that you had to overcome along the way?

Abigail Bell 

Certainly, Jo. Well, it’s definitely been a journey, we can say that. My first core memory of wanting to get involved in the industry and in engineering was back in secondary school. I actually expressed my interest of wanting to study aerospace engineering. At a careers appointment at the time, I was told to be more realistic. A lot of my other teachers said to me “Go for it, it’s something that you can do. We need more women in engineering, we need people who can change the future and you can get involved”. But that played on my mind a lot. I actually went on at University to study Sports Science originally. I didn’t feel like I had the the knowledge or the drive or what I needed to excel as an engineer. It was then, after my first year at university doing sport science, I decided no, this isn’t right. I I was actually right when I was younger, I do want to be in engineering. I want to learn how to innovate, how to create new things, and make the future better for everyone else really. So I then moved back home to Teesside to study aerospace space engineering. This was during COVID. So as you can imagine, studying a degree during COVID wasn’t the best, we missed out on a lot of practical skills that we needed. And coming towards the end of my degree, it was my dissertation supervisor who actually passed on the job to me at NEPIC. He knew that I was a bit concerned after being told we need to go down south for jobs, there’s not going to be any jobs in Teesside for what you want to do. Now I appreciate I can’t walk out my front door into an aerospace engineering job. But that doesn’t mean that there is not an absolute abundance of engineering jobs and opportunities to get involved with the industry, to be involved in sustainability, innovation, and to actually help propel the industry forward. So I quickly started and NEPIC as soon as I finished my degree. I’ve been here for two years, not looked back. It’s absolutely amazing to see how many opportunities there are in the Northeast and in the wider UK. How many opportunities there are for young people to get involved to step their way into engineering, and get on the pathway to their future. So there’s definitely been a few bumps in the road. But I can say that I’m here now. I’m really glad that I’m here. And it’s really, really good to see so many people enthusiastic about getting more people involved. And just everyone who wants to be here and wants to see the world a better place.

Jo Stansfield 

Oh, that’s great. I mean, what a story. I’m still staggered that somebody told you there were no jobs and that you were going to have to move down south. Thank goodness that you realized that that wasn’t the true situation and just how versatile your engineering degree was to actually find opportunities to work in Teesside in your area. And also great to hear the enthusiasm that you’re just bringing to everything that you’re doing.

Abigail Bell 

Definitely Jo, there is so many jobs up here. And it was something that was really not expressed to us at university. The uncertainty and panic that we all had finishing our degrees that we’d have to move away from home, we’d have to venture miles away from home down south. There are so many opportunities in every region of the UK, people just need to be aware of them.

Jo Stansfield 

Yeah, there’s certainly some work to be done, isn’t there? So Sylvia, let’s move to you because you’ve recently worked on an innovative Equity, Diversity and Inclusion project with some foundation industry businesses that was all about future proofing the workforce. Can you tell us about the aims of your project and some of the outcomes from it?

Silvia Grimaldi 

Yes, of course. So One of the main aims of the project was to look at how consultancy around EDI is usually sold as a package or something that is a one size fits all. And what we really wanted to do was work with the particular aspects of the foundation industry that make it a particular environment to work within, and take both a bottom up and a top down approach. So we wanted to make sure that the voice of people that worked within these foundation industries, was actually heard and respected within any of the plans that we were delivering out of this work. So we worked with three, large manufacturer’s. One, which was a ceramics manufacturer, and we took a three pronged approach to this. So one aspect, which was really my aspect, so I’ll talk about that maybe a little bit more in depth. But one aspect was taking a co-design approach, and working with employees across different job families across different levels of seniority, through co-design workshops. And with them based on their own personal experience of working within that industry, co-design a plan for making their particular workplace more inclusive. And then we had two other prongs to the project. One was leadership, equity coaching. So that was working with the leaders to implement this plan. And then another aspect was around participatory filmmaking. And that was really to surface the voices of people that have worked there and their experience in these beautifully edited films that also contain really beautiful imagery of the manufacturing process itself. So that was a really inspiring project to be part of. And a lot of what went into these roadmaps that we delivered for change and EDI directions, were partly things that were identified from the bottom up. But the leaders were very much on board on and didn’t realize that there was so much buy in at different levels of the organization for these types of interventions. And then other things were low hanging fruit that would not have been identified, had there not been this involvement of people at different levels and from different branches of the business. So a lot of this is actually being implemented at the moment and change is happening, which is a very satisfying place to be.

Jo Stansfield 

It will be amazing to follow the longer term outcomes from it. And I was really interested to hear about the co-design aspects. So you’re really bringing in people’s real experiences, like Abi has been describing, and joining that together with the leadership so that you’re considering all of the views from people across the organization.

Silvia Grimaldi 

Yes, definitely. And a lot of that is really starting from people’s own experiences. So initially, we mapped their experience of working within the organization. And then we started looking at where could we have interventions to, you know, eliminate some of the barriers that maybe you’ve encountered throughout your career.

Sue Black 

That’s really great. And actually making me think it’d be good to hear from Katy and Colin, about how you ended up doing what you’re doing. You’re kind of like route into the industry. Katy, how have you ended up where you are?

Katy Moss 

So I’ve ended up in Trent Refractories, really, by accident, I started a career in banking and finance, and was enjoying that in the end. It didn’t quite start out as I’d wanted it, but I ended up in a really good opportunity working in school business management and I was really excited about my prospects there. But in 2011, my father became poorly and unfortunately, passed away. So I was left as an executor for him. And as part of that, I was advised that I needed to get into the business to understand it, because we were as a family looking to sell it. And that was just part of my role, if you like, to do that. So I stepped in and kept finding things that I thought I could change and make a little bit better here and there. And also, the horizons of actually making a sale didn’t look to be too promising. So started trying to keep it going for the sake of my mother. And rolling on from that, you know, here I am, where are we now, 13 years later. And I ended up… I saw it as a challenge, really, and it was a huge learning curve to take on an industry that was exceptionally niche and very male dominated, if you like. There was a lot of stigma about me at the time. I was 29 years old, coming in. People thought you know, big she’s got big company mentality that’s not going to work for a small business. There was lots of negativity around whether I would be capable of performing the task or not. And I think there’s some determination and a lot of listening and finding things out for myself that, you know, I’ve managed to keep it going, evolve the business, and and try and take it forward into this into this new era where things have changed so much.  Wow that’s amazing. So are there any kind of key points or key things that you did you think that helped to smooth that transition? Yeah, I think there was, probably early days, well I say early days, two years in. So although it’s quite a long time, really, when we think about it. I didn’t really make much, I didn’t feel like I made a lot of progress within a couple of years. But there was a lot of jargon used around certain things, particularly when describing products. And if you don’t understand any of the processes that you supply into, how do you understand or be able to hold a conversation about anything? So I found a local course that Sheffield University we’re putting on about steelmaking processes. And I thought that that would be a good place to start. So I went on this week’s intensive course, relating to that, and whilst it wasn’t particularly about my industry, it actually gave me an insight into our customers did and where our products fitted within that, so it was a good, it was a good start to be able to see what the relevance of the discussions were. And sadly, I think our area, sort of the Sheffield Rotherham region, in the 1980s was so buoyant with with refractory producers, there was training available everywhere and anywhere. But now, the depletion of that was probably down to under 10. And those training courses aren’t available. So it was it was more asking questions and listening to try and build that knowledge and just piecing it together, bit by bit.  Wow, and so was there any sort of turning point then after that, where you knew that things would be okay? Unbelievably, that that sort of came in about five years later. It was almost like I was on this treadmill. So I’d just lost my father, I’ve given up my career, it took me two years to actually let go of the career that I had, because I tried to keep both going on this mad idea that I would actually be able to do both jobs. And a couple of years in, I decided to quit my other role and run the business full time. And then the next thing that happened was was unfortunate, my mother passed away. So I sort of in the, you know, plunge back into that whole grief cycle again. And it took five years before I kind of had this, not an epiphany because it sounds really cliched, but a moment where I stopped and actually looked at what what I’d been through. And actually what had what I’d actually managed to achieve in that time. So it was a colleague of mine who I’d taken on to help us with some of the financial side of the business, who she actually nominated me for an award and I didn’t know anything about it. So the first thing I got was this invitation to come in and be heard. And that process of talking through what had happened and what I’ve been through and where I got to, that was a massive turning point in terms of giving myself some confidence that I’d actually kept this business going for five years. That had I not have stepped in, it wouldn’t be there. So I think that was a huge confidence boost. And then I was able to start to see the future rather than just on this hamster wheel of “well I just need to do this, I just need to agree that, get this process, get that new processing,  sort this little part of the business out”. So yeah, it actually gave us some clear direction as to Well, where are we going? And what do we want to be, and how do we want to act? And what do we want our customers to see us as? Yeah, how are we going to evolve essentially?

Wow, that’s amazing. Thank you very much for sharing that with us. It’s a really interesting and an inspiring story of, you know, keeping going for five years before you really thought that you were getting somewhere. That’s incredible.

Katy Moss 

It’s bonkers, really.

Sue Black 

Colin it would be great to hear from you, a bit about your story.

Colin Church 

So, started off being a fairly traditional way. So I studied chemistry at school and went on to university and did a PhD and went and worked very briefly in academia, which I absolutely loathed and hated. So apologies to all academics listening, but it was just not for me at all. And then I just did something a bit different and joined the British civil service for 21 years, and did a range of roles throughout that time, which I would say, were easier for me because of the training I’d received as a as a scientist in terms of analytical thinking. How to approach questions, how to structure things logically, and so on, so forth. But sometimes had nothing at all to do with the science that I’d actually learned at university and school. And then left the civil service about 6, 7… 8 years ago now, can’t even count! Eight years ago, and started my third career as a professional membership person. And I moved to IOM3, in 2018. And have loved it ever since.

Jo Stansfield 

I’m very interested to know a bit more about IOM3, because that plays a really important role actually, in helping professionals in their engineering careers. And, you know, of course, very relevant to our conversation about having the right skills and making sure that people have got the professional support, they need to be able to continue and progress in their engineering careers. So can you tell us a little bit about the work that you’re doing through IOM3, Colin?

Colin Church 

IOM3 is an engineering, scientific and environmental professional body. So our members fit into those three sort of boxes. The great majority are from an engineering background. And what we seek to do is to support them at every stage of their career, in developing themselves and becoming more effective in what they do, and more effective in the contribution they can make to society. So we offer professional recognition through membership and through becoming professionally registered as a trust engineer, or registered environmental practitioner, or whatever else it might be. We provide training and continuing professional development. We offer opportunities to learn through conferences and events, either as a presenter or as an attendee. We have activities to try and bring together the expertise of our members to feed it into public policy debates and discussions, which are great opportunities for people to learn different skills and get engaged as well. We offer mentoring to people who wish to progress through these different activities. And then one of the things that I think people often forget about professional membership bodies is that it’s actually a really low risk place to try some new skill sets. For example, as a relatively new person in your career, you might not have the opportunity to chair a formal meeting. Except if you volunteer for your professional body, you may well get that opportunity. You may well have the opportunity to do some public presentations in a way that is slightly less daunting than singing for your supper in a work context. So lots of opportunities in that kind of space. We also think that it’s really important to be loud and proud about the importance of equity, diversity and inclusion, or EDI, across the foundation industries, and more widely across materials, minerals and mining in general. And there are lots of reasons and I’m sure that this podcast series has touched on quite a few of them. But we see it is important to be positive about it and to explain to people why they should be positive about it as well.

Jo Stansfield 

Absolutely. And Abi, I see you nodding along, as Colin was talking about equity, diversity and inclusion. Can you tell us a bit more about what that means to you? And maybe some of the things that you’ve been involved in and that you see happening in Teesside around that area?

Abigail Bell 

Yeah, these are obviously my personal thoughts, not reflective of NEPIC. But as I’ve only been involved in the industry for two years, and even in this two years, I have seen a massive shift in actually getting more women involved, more people from underprivileged backgrounds, more people with disabilities. I’ve seen a shift in in the two years that I’ve just been in the industry. And when I go around and speak to a lot of NEPIC members and companies that we’re involved with, they are all saying the same thing as well. Back in the day, many years ago, it was a very male dominated industry, a lot of males, they’d follow the typical route, whether that would be going through ICI and coming in through the steelworks or however they got into the industry, it was very male dominated. And it’s definitely only been the last few years that females have started to have a prevalent role, and make their way off the ladders, go into leadership positions. And it’s really, really good to see the amount of support organizations are out there to encourage women, to encourage parents, whether that be male or female, who have been on paternity or maternity leave and then to come back into work. There are so many things going on in Teesside and in the wider UK, to actually give people the opportunity to get back into work or to get into work that they may not have thought was their original career path. There’s so much going on and it’s really really, really good to see. I definitely had the concern coming into the industry just from going through school, going through university. I was definitely concerned. Am I going to be one of the only females in the field? Is there going to be many females that I work with? Well, I have the opportunity to grow alongside other women. But what I can say is, yes, I certainly have. And I also haven’t been taken aback by the men that I work with. The men that I work with have been just as much, if not more supportive than the women. They are, really there, they really want to see people succeed. It’s definitely moved away from the standard, male and female. And now we are all just here for the better of the industry. And it’s really, really nice to see that credit is being given where credit’s due.

Jo Stansfield 

Yeah, that’s brilliant. And I’m gonna come back to join that together with some of the thoughts that Colin was sharing, about some of the ability to build skill sets and an environment that’s not just in the workplace. And Silvia, I think this relates to some of the work that you’ve been doing as well, to bring in different skill sets. It’s not just about the technical is it? It’s about the full spectrum of skills and capabilities that people can develop.

Silvia Grimaldi 

Definitely. And one of the things I was really interested about when we ran the co-design workshops within the organizations was that people came expecting to be lectured at, expecting to be trained. And they were really surprised about the fact that, you know, they were doing creative workshops. They were drawing, they were also drawing on their own experience, people were listening to them. And they together, were creating a plan. And I think that was really the strength of bringing in co-design, bringing in arts and design methods to really get at that qualitative aspect of what is the experience of working within this. And getting people comfortable, to talk with each other work in groups, share their experience, and then come up with a joint plan. So that it’s looking at many different aspects of the organization, and not only looking at it from a particular point of view. And also kind of understanding the wider organization’s culture, from a perspective that is very embedded in the people that work there. And I think that was really the joy of running this project, which was to surface these things that maybe everyone knew about, maybe everyone talked about in different ways in different little groups, but to really bring that together and have people talk across, you know, from cleaning and maintenance, to forklift drivers, to people on the production line, to HR to marketing. You know, all in the same room and actually talking about this together and coming up with a plan together.

Sue Black 

That’s really great. Having that kind of integrated approach, I think lots of the issues that we have just in general are about lack of communication, between, you know, getting, you know, people being siloed in different ways in society, in industry, I just want to bring you back in Katy. You’re now in, or have been for a while now, in a leadership position within your organization. So it’s really great to hear from Abi about her experience. Have you got any thoughts around apprenticeships, and you know, the kind of things that Abi’s been talking about?

Katy Moss 

I think it’s really important to open the generation of tomorrow’s eyes as to what the opportunities are, that are out there, because they are there. In fact, the world’s there for their, for their picking really. And it’s more about the stigma of people thinking that they’re not able to do these types of jobs, or the perception that they don’t exist, rather than the reality. And trying to get into universities, even, to inspire them to think about it and look at look at the world in a different way. I think is really important. It was a dream of mine to be able to have apprentices and because of the lack of industry specific knowledge that was available to be able to offer his training that prevented me from many years from doing that, or otherwise, I’d have been doing it back in 2014. But it was more in recent years that I felt that we were able to offer apprenticeships. And we did put two on about well, actually three years ago so I think it’s really important to have those so that we’re building the skill set for tomorrow, and keeping the knowledge and things in the UK. Building our sort of place as a as a global leader and making sure that we are putting back for the next generation. When we look at our industry, there’s a lot of aging talent, but there’s this huge gap in between that we’ve that we’ve all kind of forgotten about and not done anything with, which is a real shame.

Sue Black 

So yeah, on that point, then what can we do to make sure that manufacturing and the foundation industries are seen as good career options for people within the UK?

Katy Moss 

I think it’s about inspiring them. And I think we really miss that opportunity, whether it starts, I think it starts at primary school to be honest. I think they need to be wowed at four years old about melting metal. And, you know, because if we go to the absolute kind of stereotype: little boys and diggers, they love them. Little boys and trains, they love them. But why should it be little boys? It’s everybody. And I think the big thing for me was, I was told, work hard at school, Katy, and then you don’t have to get your hands dirty. You don’t have to have a job like this, because who wants to go out into a sludge field and look at stock for the steel industry, when actually you could have a nice clean office job, and not have to do that. So if you work hard, you don’t you don’t have to do this. But actually, that task is so much more important, because that’s keeping the steelworks going. They’re keeping them stocked with materials that that continue to melt steel, so that I can work on this laptop today, you know. And I think we forgot that for a long period, and also particularly around girls doing that kind of thing. And it wasn’t until I went on that steelmaking course, where I actually got to see steel melted. And I thought, Gosh, this is just like watching a volcano, a manmade volcano, erupt right in front of my face. I can feel the heat from it. But because it’s controlled, I can stand here and actually watch this volcano erupt and it’s all quite exciting and wonderful. But people need to see that to get them excited. And it’s all the it’s not just about putting steel in a pot and melting it. It’s what quality of steel do you want to achieve? What are the additives involved? Does it want to be brittle? Does it want to be malleable? You know, what are they trying to achieve at the end? Well, if it wants to be one or the other then the additive ratio changes, which also changes a microstructure. I had no idea you could even look at metal under a microscope 12 years ago. So there’s just a whole other world that people don’t understand. And I suppose just on a side shoot, you know, we used to we get cold calls in the office and people who work in, in offices in London, and they would say, “Oh, well, you know, Tata, they make cars, don’t they? So you must look at lots of cars every day out of your office”. And I was like, no, no, they make steel. We don’t have cars parked opposite the steelworks. So, yeah. Just another example of people not understanding.

Sue Black 

Yeah, crazy. It is crazy that I mean, you know, Jo and I have been involved in the TransFIRe project. We’ve just found out so many interesting facts and had some really great visits to cement works and stuff which, and learnt so much, which we just had absolutely no clue about. Whereas I would have loved to learnt all about this at school. And yeah, and absolutely, from primary school. Colin.

Colin Church 

Yeah, I just wanted to add a little bit to what Katy was saying. And I completely agree with what you were saying there, Katy. I think it’s also important to have two other things going on. One is that the environment into which somebody comes is actually welcoming. And it’s great to hear from Abigail, that that is now the case. But I hear lots and lots of stories from older members of IOM3 about when that wasn’t the case. And so that shift and maintaining that shift and making that shift true is really important. And the second thing isthat phrase, I can’t be one if I can’t see one. Having people who are in that space who are doing those things like Katy, you’re doing leading Trent Refractories. Abi, what you’re doing with NEPIC, and so on and so forth. That’s hugely important. Because other people will say, “Well, if she can, why can’t I”. And you have another tool in refusing the teacher that says, “You’re a girl, you can’t do it”, or “you’re black and you can’t do it” or “you’re whatever, and you can’t do it”. I think those two things are really important too. And we all have a role to play in trying to make sure those happen.

Sue Black 

Lots of great points here. Abi.

Abigail Bell 

Really interesting what you had to say, Katy, there about primary school. I had quite a different experience of primary school. We were very sciencey. Lots of things that we done. We got to go visit local universities, play around with robots. We got involved a lot with science. Granted, we didn’t maybe look into the chemical industry and looking at chemicals as much in the primary school. But physics, robotics, anything like that we were heavily involved with primary school. For me, I felt it was as soon as we moved to secondary school, that year seven to year nine is where there was nothing for us. You went along to your normal engineering classes or your design technology, whatever, wherever it’s called the school, done the lessons and that was it. It was very sort of focused. Oh boys come and look and do this, and the girls were just sort of like “Well, I want to do that too. Can we not come and get involved?” So for me, the big slow down or speed bump in my love of science, technology, engineering, maths, was in year seven to nine. It’s not encouraged, you’ve started a new environment, you’ve got new friends, new hormones, new expectations from you. And it really does just, it drifts away from you. And you begin to think that you shouldn’t be doing that. And now there’s still a lot of culture that needs to be changed around this. Parents maybe need to have a bit more education on that children can go and do anything that they want to do. I’m a firm believer that anyone can do anything, if they put their mind to it. And I will always stand by that. But yeah, for me, it was like year seven to nine were really sort of missed out on all them sort of opportunities. And as I thought, do I really want to do this? And then as soon as I got to my GCSEs, and I was studying science, technology, engineering, there were so many opportunities there. But by that point, a lot of my friends who had that interest at the start of school no longer had that interes. It was pushed and conditioned out of them, even though they absolutely loved it coming into secondary school.

Sue Black 

That’s great in terms of primary school, but not so great in terms of secondary school. And a really good point, actually. Thanks so much, everyone for just a fantastic conversation today. Right. So our quickfire questions. What’s your favorite thing about the foundation industries and why? And we’ll go to Colin first.

Colin Church 

They are foundational. They just are so important to everything that flows from it. And there is no such thing as a modern society without them.

Sue Black 

Great, thank you, Katie.

Katy Moss 

I just think that there’s just so many cool processes within them that nobody knows anything about. And there’s so much science in there that’s really, really interesting that if people can just scratch the surface, would just be in complete awe of the day to day. So no more mundane office jobs. Why not design a landing gear or something, you know, something far more fun.

Sue Black 

Great. Abi.

Abigail Bell 

I agree with both of what’s been said so far. It’s just the sheer importance it has to the world. And I don’t think it’s relayed enough to people. Everything that you’ve probably got in front of you right now has been touched by the Foundation Industries at some point in its lifecycle. And similar to what Katy said, there is so much knowledge still to be tapped into. There’s so much innovation, and there’s so many theories in practice that have not yet to be proved. There is so much more about this can keep advancing. Even though it is foundation, it will be here for a very long time and will increase exponentially.

Sue Black 

Absolutely. Silvia

Silvia Grimaldi 

My first degree was in furniture design. And then I went on to product design and just materials and how things are made have a massive fascination for me. So just being able to see that happening is really interesting.

Sue Black 

That’s great. Thank you. So our next question. Which foundational material would you find it hardest to live without? Back to you Colin.

Colin Church 

Glass. Three reasons. First of all, I wear glasses. Secondly, I love sunlight. And thirdly, one of my greatest passions in life is wine. And it doesn’t taste any good out of anything apart from glass.

Sue Black 

Well, I love that one. I have to agree. Silvia.

Silvia Grimaldi 

That was my pre prepared answer as well! But I have not thought of the glasses. But yes, definitely the ability to have daylight indoors is the thing that I would miss the most.

Sue Black 

Yeah, something we don’t even really think about most of the time. Thank you. Katy.

Katy Moss 

Well, I am biased, because I’ve got to say refractories, in the sense that you wouldn’t have glass without refractories. Everything that we love is based with those in mind. So yep, that’s my favorite. And obviously you know, I wouldn’t be here doing this without them. So, there we go.

Sue Black 

Great. Thank you. Abby.

Abigail Bell 

I don’t think I can give a better answer than glass with glasses, to be honest. I think we all definitely need them to see. And yes, sunlight into the home is amazing. And even just the cameras and phones to be able to capture memories. There’s quite glass involved in all of them. So it’s very important.

Sue Black 

Great. Thank you. And last but not least question. Ehich material is most like your personality and why? Colin.

Colin Church 

This is the one I had the most difficulty coming up with a snappy answer to, I have to say. I think probably I would go for ceramics. And I think I would go for ceramics because, well, friends and family so I’m very slow to anger. So I’m very slow to heat up. So that’s a bit like a ceramic. They say that I’m pretty constant. But if you do transgress I will come down on you like a ton of bricks.

Sue Black 

Well, we will remember that for future! Thanks, Colin. Silvia,

Silvia Grimaldi 

I’m gonna go with no foundation industries material, but I think wood is the one that I would choose partly because I just love working with it, but also partly because it’s alive. And it’s organic, and it does not always behave how you want it to behave, and you really need to know how to deal with it.

Sue Black 

So we’ve been lucky with you on the podcast then! Phew. Katy.

Katy Moss 

So I thinking about this one, I thought, I can’t say you know, glass, because I can’t say glass, because that would mean that in my role that would be terrible if I was easily shattered. Then I thought I could have a bit of fun with it. And I thought, “ooh, stainless”, but then then I’m thinking, no, you know, because that’s like, a bit self assured, and, whatnot. So I came back to the ceramic side, again, because refractory is particularly quite determined and stubborn and difficult to wear. So I think with sort of the background and things that I’ve got, those personality traits, digging my heels in and keeping things going represent the materials that we actually make. So there you go.

Sue Black 

That’s great. Thanks, Katy. Abi.

Abigail Bell 

Well, I certainly don’t have anywhere near as good of an answer as any of them. I was thinking maybe a sponge. I know, it’s not necessarily the type of material that we may be looking for, but a sponge, sort of absorb the atmosphere and the personalities of people around me, and relate back to them in a way to resonate with everyone that I deal with on a day to day basis. Yes, probably the best you’re gonna get from me. My personality changes depending on who I’m with and what I know make them comfortable.

Sue Black 

That’s really great. Well, Abi, Katy, Sylvia, and Colin, thank you so much for joining us today. It’s been a wonderful conversation.

Silvia Grimaldi 

Thank you.

Colin Church 

Thanks very much. And goodbye.

Abigail Bell 

Thank you.

Katy Moss 

Thank you for having us.

—

Sue Black

Thank you for joining us for this Equity Edge episode.

Jo Stansfield

This Podcast can be found on our website www.transfire-hub.org/podcast and is also available on all good podcast channels.

Sue Black

And Please don’t forget to follow TransFIRe Hub on X and LinkedIN.  See you next time!